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F/O 's job got lesser meaning !

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F/O 's job got lesser meaning !

Old 28th May 2001, 19:16
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E. MORSE
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Red face F/O 's job got lesser meaning !

Recently understood that at Martinair , co-pilots are not allowed to do all the normal PF duty's anymore.

Meaning :

They are not allowed to start engines anymore.
They are not allowed to taxi anymore.
They are not allowed to handle thrust levers at T/O anymore.
And finally , they're not allowed to fly non-precision approaches anymore.

Doesn't sound real challenging anymore does it ?

Question is : how is it at your company ?
Meaning : Is it as restricted as it is there ?

Never saw it before at my company's.
 
Old 28th May 2001, 19:48
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Grease Weasel
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I'm not allowed to taxi unless with a training capt.
Can only set take-off thrust, then capt takes throttles.
Not allowed to start engines.
But if anyone tells me that I'm not capable of flying a non-precision approach I'll be really upset - what next, no landings at all? Are we supposed to learn how to do all of these things on our command course?
 
Old 28th May 2001, 19:52
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Better mention the car park at Manchester if you want to avoid the lock <g>...

Many airlines have the "captain only" taxi, reject and engine start policies. I remember years ago American Airlines paid extra to have their A-300-600's delivered without the right hand nosewheel steering tiller since their policy was that only the captain taxis the aircraft. Of course, American had a lot of other policies that were unique back in those days.
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Old 28th May 2001, 20:00
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Gladiator
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As far as I know all US majors operate the same way.
 
Old 28th May 2001, 20:01
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E. MORSE
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Understandable to some degree , Airbubba .
But how about the non precision approaches ?

And I remember KLM years ago : They paid more to put in the RH side tillers on their 737's.

Nice to now some policies on others isn't it?
 
Old 28th May 2001, 20:08
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Herod
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First Officers trained to the same standard as captains. They can do the lot, including initiating and carrying out rejects. Some of the company aircraft only have single tiller, otherwise they taxi as well. That way, when you need a capable F.O., you have a better chance of finding that's what you've got.
 
Old 28th May 2001, 20:24
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wonderbusdriver
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All except for the non-prec app. in my co.

SOPs here - havenīt had an identity crisis because of it in the last 11 years...
 
Old 28th May 2001, 20:28
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Rusty A300
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That's absolutely tragic! Send the management pilots off to South African Airways to see how it should be done. We have our own set of problems, but F/O's are PILOTS in this company and nobody challenges that. Our F/O's do everything the Captains do except wrinkle. But that's becaues, generally they're so much younger. Non precision approaches are always flown by the F/O since they're considered mandatory monitored approaches. That means the Captain does the landing after taking control at MDA. Monitored, precision approaches are treated the same. However, where these types of approaches are forseen, the F/O is usually given the choice as to which leg(s) he'd like to fly. That way each guy gets equal take-offs and landings where possible.

I feel so sorry for those hot-shot jockeys that need to undermine the best help they've ever been offered!!!
 
Old 28th May 2001, 20:48
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Who gives a dam about starting the engines i did it all the time as a flight engineer and now as an FO i cant ....big deal !.

As for the rest of the stuff we do it all except taxi as we are short of a tiller on the right side.
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Old 28th May 2001, 21:09
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FL310
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No throttle until after T/O, no engine start, no taxy, handover on ground around 60 kn after touch down....it is an insurance question in our company and I guess in most others as this reduces immense the costs...British beancounters will read this and off the tiller goes....
Actually this is practise in most companies all around the globe.
Ahh...another one from an Asian country where I worked as examiner, "First officers may be given a landing if weather permitts" (in capital letters on the IR-checkform...)
 
Old 28th May 2001, 21:50
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javelin
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Watch this space - I believe the Tourists are going the same way.
 
Old 28th May 2001, 23:17
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Dan Winterland
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My fleet trains the First Officers as potential Captains from the word go. The only things they don't do are double assymetric and flapless/slatless approaches. The philosophy extends to the commanders rarely over-riding a First Officer's decision unless necessary - and nearly all commanders on the fleet follow this.

The policy pays dividends when it comes to the First Officers swapping seats, and we have some people more to the left hand seat fairly rapidly. In one case recently, after two years and just over a thousand hours total time - and this on a 4 engine heavy jet!

And before any one points out this can't be the case, I would like to point out we don't need ATPLs in my company!!!!
 
Old 28th May 2001, 23:31
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Charles Glass
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Come on Rusty.

A300's all but gone. On 73's, Captain starts and taxi's and you still have to spend 14 years in RHS, even after joining SAA with 3500 hours.

Does it really matter who starts and taxi's. I hear that SAA is also considering the "Captain's throttles" for take-off and possible aborts.
 
Old 29th May 2001, 01:55
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Positive Climb
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In our company, FO's are positively encouraged to 'manage' their sectors as much as possible.

Also:

- FO's start engines (for capts sector & vice versa)

- FO's may taxi if tiller fitted

- Have control of the thrust levers for their T/O's. However, they may only reject for specifically briefed scenarios.

- may land in Cat I or better conditions

- have 2/3 of all aircraft x-wind limits

From their first sector, they are undoubtedly being trained for that transition to the left hand seat.

------------------
"After V1, we'll take the emergency into the air - You call 'Positive Climb' and I'll ask for the gear up. We'll climb away at V2 +15"

[This message has been edited by Positive Climb (edited 29 May 2001).]
 
Old 29th May 2001, 02:30
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Underdog
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FWIW,

In our company we get to do pretty much everything - except CAT II or worse landings and severe x-winds.

I have worked for companies where taxiing wasn't allowed from the RH seat and transitioning to the LH seat felt a bit strange at first.

I have heard that some American FOs on domestic services aren't type-rated on the aircraft - maybe one of our cousins could enlighten us. Doesn't really bother me, but I guess some will think less of others for it.

ATB

Underdog
 
Old 29th May 2001, 03:01
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Kaptin M
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In four of the 5 airlines I've worked for, these:
* not allowed to start engines.
* not allowed to taxi.
* not allowed to handle thrust levers at T/O after take-off thrust has been set.
have been the norm. The exception was Singapore Airlines, where the F/O did the engine starts, and taxied the aircraft.

Additionally, in ALL companies, it was expected that the captain would take the role of PF should a non-normal situation arise.

No-one is saying that F/O's can't handle the non-normal events, however the guy in the lhs has theoretically (in the majority of cases) had more experience and practice than the first officer, and the ops manuals have to be written to take into account the "lowest common denominator" amongst the F/O's.

Dan Winterland, that sounds like a bit of a tall story - 1,000 hours tt with a command on a 4-engine heavy???!!!
 
Old 29th May 2001, 03:01
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15/15 flex
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Dan

As it's your company, can I have a nice big pay rise please?!

I do agree that the only way to ensure you have a competent FO when it comes to the crunch is to delegate responsibility from the off. How do you chaps run the sim? FO not allowed to action any emergencies? What if the Captain croaks, and said FO is now required to bring home the SLF. As mentioned, where do you teach all these "niceties", on the upgrade course?

 
Old 29th May 2001, 03:07
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15/15 flex
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Kaptin

Not really. 2000 hrs tt, heavy 3-jet command, age 25. Next.....

[This message has been edited by 15/15 flex (edited 28 May 2001).]
 
Old 29th May 2001, 04:59
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Bellerophon
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On my fleet, we fly leg and leg about, with (almost) complete role reversal when the F/O is flying. They are restricted to Cat1 or better weather, 2/3 of the aircraft crosswind limit, and have a more limited number of items for which they may reject a take off.

A few items are Captain only, such as signing the Tech Log, signing the Loadsheet, making any other rejected take off decision, initiating a passenger evacuation and Cat2/3 Autolands.

Apart from that, when the F/O is flying, it’s their aircraft, with decisions rarely being over-ruled. Works well for the reasons posted by Dan Winterland, and indeed some of our F/Os were once (low hour) Captains with his airline.

(I thought someone would take the bait Dan, looks like it was the good Kaptin M! Let's try another!)

As for flapless and slatless landings, I’ve given lots of them away to F/Os !
 
Old 29th May 2001, 05:59
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RAFAT
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Personally, I blame the US for most of the restrictions placed on F/Os around the world.

Their philosophy of treating the guy in the RHS more as a Pilot's Assistant than an F/O starts life back at the factory - most European aircraft manufacturers fit tillers on the right, US ones don't. (see posts from Airbubba & E.Morse for proof) By the time this philosophy has reached the line, the F/O may as well consider his presence as just a legal requirement.

Kaptin M, surely in a non-normal situation it would be best for the Captain to hand control of the aircraft to the F/O, thereby freeing up capacity to effectively maintain a position of 'Command & Control' ie. briefing the cabin crew, passengers, assessing alternates if required, liasing with ATC & Company Ops, and much more, without having to think about flying the aircraft.

Yes, I definitely blame the US.
 

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