Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Essex
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well one thing is clear to me :
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Dream Buster
Simply put, if the crew miss ALL the clues and then whilst drifting into unconciousness........ happen to notice an O2 mask dangling down in front of them - they might put it on and save their souls?
In that very, very rare instance where they've missed ALL the other cues? Maybe, but I'm inclined to agree with the comment made earlier that a dangling mask obscuring the screens in front of them is likely to be a bigger menace on more occasions.
Nobody needs to be superhuman to follow phase one items for depressurisation, I even managed it once. Maybe anyone struggling with those should not be there in the first place?
Originally Posted by aDriver
Well one thing is clear to me :
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
It's the passengers who are the problem and I wonder how many wish they'd paid attention when things start to go wrong.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: November18
Age: 48
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe a signed declaration that the emergency information has been understood would help? It would certainly negate the risk of litigation - which is normally the first line a pax seeks after things go pear shaped.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Esher, Surrey
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well one thing is clear to me :
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
The safety briefings don't work for many passengers.
The industry needs a re-think on how to get it's message across on what to to do in this sort or emergency.
As discussed earlier, there is a practical limit to training Pax even in their own language.
If I was ever to find myself in such a situation the message I would want is The guys behind the locked door have got their masks on
Fat chance of that so I would cross everything and hope the decent starts soon and I hope my assumption that all was working smoothly was confirmed.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't matter how you change safety briefings a large percentage of passengers are actually completely thick. You can see this when they turn up at security with 8 gallons of unidentified liquids, get confused and can't seem to follow signs to the appropriate gate, have no concept of time and wonder why their luggage is offloaded, and turn up for a Ryanair or Easyjet and get lost trying to find their seat number. Not to mention the woman in 1A into STN tonight that couldn't seem to understand that her bags had to go overhead. You guys find passengers frustrating you should try sitting with them!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One more time
Flintstone,
If the mask is dangling in front of you - it is because you have missed ALL the clues and to allow you to see the way ahead, you should don the mask....
It is called fail safe.
I also managed it in the sim on many occasions but the only time I was in an actual fume event - I forgot. Yes, I felt a complete numbskull afterwards; in more ways than one...
One is only trying to help and ask inconvenient questions for the poor xxxxers who are still flying.
DB
If the mask is dangling in front of you - it is because you have missed ALL the clues and to allow you to see the way ahead, you should don the mask....
It is called fail safe.
I also managed it in the sim on many occasions but the only time I was in an actual fume event - I forgot. Yes, I felt a complete numbskull afterwards; in more ways than one...
One is only trying to help and ask inconvenient questions for the poor xxxxers who are still flying.
DB
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point Matt Black - I love watching the confiscation crew removing expensive cosmetics etc etc from the cranially challenged dim wits - and the bottles of water purchased sometimes only seconds before the security comb - Duuuuuuh!
How these F**wits ever manage to book a flight sometimes amazes me?
However, if we're not getting the message across something has to change - maybe a pre- boarding brief and questionaire - if they don't pass they can collect their bags bags and foxtrot oscar!
I once saw a simulation of a fire in a terminal - to test evac. signs and procedures, after the Dusseldorf fire. I noticed that, despite what looked like a very simple and obviuos signage strategy with zone specific alarms, some of the 'electronic ' pax were actually proceeding towards the fire. When I questioned this I was told that about 3% of the population just couldn't comprehend the blindingly obvious - as a result the system had to be extended at almost double the cost.
Sadly, if you follow the pareto principle this 3% will cause around about 25% of the accidents! Food for thought?
How these F**wits ever manage to book a flight sometimes amazes me?
However, if we're not getting the message across something has to change - maybe a pre- boarding brief and questionaire - if they don't pass they can collect their bags bags and foxtrot oscar!
I once saw a simulation of a fire in a terminal - to test evac. signs and procedures, after the Dusseldorf fire. I noticed that, despite what looked like a very simple and obviuos signage strategy with zone specific alarms, some of the 'electronic ' pax were actually proceeding towards the fire. When I questioned this I was told that about 3% of the population just couldn't comprehend the blindingly obvious - as a result the system had to be extended at almost double the cost.
Sadly, if you follow the pareto principle this 3% will cause around about 25% of the accidents! Food for thought?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: london
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I honestly try not to post because I'm not a professional, but I have to say this:
if you look above you will see may references to stupid, moronic, idiotic, passengers. I won't bother to list them all but many insults have been used.
But also you will see many references to the Helios pilots who, despite being trained failed to take the right action in an emergency situation.
I hope no one here would describe them in the way that passengers, and specifically Pen Hadow has been.
Accidents happen often when small things add up.
My point is this: if you dismiss passengers who fail to comply with the safety briefing in an emergency as 'morons' you are guilty of ignoring and oversimplifying a genuinely important issue.
The issue is that we, SLF, are not fully prepared for emergency situations, and never will be until we all go on a 6 week course before each flight.
If I'm ever unfortunate enough to experience an emergency, my chances of survival will be higher than, for instance my wife's. Because I have lots of background information about aviation - I find it interesting. She doesn't know how many engines there are on the plane she is in.
A fair number of people above would take the view that she is an idiot, but once again that doesn't help anyone.
Do air-accident investigators ever write "the crew were idiots, they had been trained so they should have done everything right. We recommend keeping all SOP's and training exactly the same."?
I will shut up now. I have huge admiration for the industry and it's exemplary safety standards, but since this is open to us SLF (?) you have to put up with us.
if you look above you will see may references to stupid, moronic, idiotic, passengers. I won't bother to list them all but many insults have been used.
But also you will see many references to the Helios pilots who, despite being trained failed to take the right action in an emergency situation.
I hope no one here would describe them in the way that passengers, and specifically Pen Hadow has been.
Accidents happen often when small things add up.
My point is this: if you dismiss passengers who fail to comply with the safety briefing in an emergency as 'morons' you are guilty of ignoring and oversimplifying a genuinely important issue.
The issue is that we, SLF, are not fully prepared for emergency situations, and never will be until we all go on a 6 week course before each flight.
If I'm ever unfortunate enough to experience an emergency, my chances of survival will be higher than, for instance my wife's. Because I have lots of background information about aviation - I find it interesting. She doesn't know how many engines there are on the plane she is in.
A fair number of people above would take the view that she is an idiot, but once again that doesn't help anyone.
Do air-accident investigators ever write "the crew were idiots, they had been trained so they should have done everything right. We recommend keeping all SOP's and training exactly the same."?
I will shut up now. I have huge admiration for the industry and it's exemplary safety standards, but since this is open to us SLF (?) you have to put up with us.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: November18
Age: 48
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Baftabill,
In whatever line of work you are in..just how would you describe somebody who blatently gave no regard to special instructions from yourself regarding their safety whilst in your care-often with the intention of appearing "already well versed".
In whatever line of work you are in..just how would you describe somebody who blatently gave no regard to special instructions from yourself regarding their safety whilst in your care-often with the intention of appearing "already well versed".
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: November18
Age: 48
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I firmly believe that today's litigious society is part to blame. people will always expect somebody else to shoulder responsibility. Many commonly assume 'all will be OK' because so and so is paid to make sure it's OK. If everything turns out not to be OK then the same questions are always asked. If the person was deemed negligent in not making themselves aware or certain information then someone will be guilty of allowing them such.
Bafta's post sums it up. Posting on behalf of SLF and being primarily concerned with how some passengers are described by frustrated crew members. Some people think that just because they are using what is a service industry then it's a license to throw common sense out of the window and still be afforded the yes sir no sirs etc etc.
Bafta's post sums it up. Posting on behalf of SLF and being primarily concerned with how some passengers are described by frustrated crew members. Some people think that just because they are using what is a service industry then it's a license to throw common sense out of the window and still be afforded the yes sir no sirs etc etc.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dream Buster.
No oneupmanship intended. I mentioned my incident only because on a good day with a following wind and eight hours sleep I'd say I'm average and certainly no ace. I also believe that the current system(s) of crew mask deployment coupled with aural and visual warnings are enough. In the Helios incident they misunderstood the warning which I would suggest raises issues about (maybe) training and the warning system on that aircraft. I don't think there is enough evidence of similar incidents to warrant the redesign and retro-fitting of thousands of aircraft.
Affordable safety? Perhaps but I also think there is some merit in the suggestion that the current system is also the best ergonomically. In the interests of preventing further thread drift or being moderated I'm happy to agree to disagree.
No oneupmanship intended. I mentioned my incident only because on a good day with a following wind and eight hours sleep I'd say I'm average and certainly no ace. I also believe that the current system(s) of crew mask deployment coupled with aural and visual warnings are enough. In the Helios incident they misunderstood the warning which I would suggest raises issues about (maybe) training and the warning system on that aircraft. I don't think there is enough evidence of similar incidents to warrant the redesign and retro-fitting of thousands of aircraft.
Affordable safety? Perhaps but I also think there is some merit in the suggestion that the current system is also the best ergonomically. In the interests of preventing further thread drift or being moderated I'm happy to agree to disagree.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back in the days when I flew 737 [ 10000+ hours] we regularly did bleeds off take-offs ....Now what if I forgot to reconfigure the bleeds after take off and climbed to cruise altitude using APU bleed? ....So the APU decides to shut down at 30 something thousand , loss of hot bleed air , packs still operating with ambient ram air so cabin depressurises rapidly , passengers feel cold air , masks drop.
With no airflow in the cabin and differential pressure dropping, the outflow valve/s will run towards closed. With lots of warm bodies in an insulated and almost sealed container, the temperature may not drop as much as you think (perhaps not at all)
Rgds.
NSEU
Guest
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere between E17487 and F75775
Age: 80
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't see the tree for the woods......
As a frequent SLF onboard FR and the 737-800 series I keep looking at this thread for some suggestions as to what caused the pressure loss.
However the majority of posts relate to PX perception of the problem.
It occurs to me the best way for an airline to divert attention away from a technical problem is to hire some prat of an arctic explorer and allow him to utter inane comments on the matter; the ensuing wave of outrage will obscure the more important question: what caused the cabin pressure loss and in what way (gradual or sudden) did it happen ?
However the majority of posts relate to PX perception of the problem.
It occurs to me the best way for an airline to divert attention away from a technical problem is to hire some prat of an arctic explorer and allow him to utter inane comments on the matter; the ensuing wave of outrage will obscure the more important question: what caused the cabin pressure loss and in what way (gradual or sudden) did it happen ?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Essex
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see from www.acarsd.org that EI-DAS has now returned to service (flying out of Stansted this morning, for example).
Just a numbered other
Being the 'village pilot' I dread any incident like this one. You know, next time in the pub all and sundry come up to ask your expert opinion.
In the case of Spanair, and the like, they get 'I don't have sufficient information to give an informed reply, let's wait for the AAIB report' (or equivalent for the pedants).
In this case I asked what did they expect:
Most wanted the crew to brief them immediately on what to do.I explained that they are busy saving their own skins first, and in the case of the pilots then going into a well practised routine to ensure the safety of the aircraft and all in it. The most they would get is a PA announcing an emergency descent, followed,once the aircraft was safely established in breathable air, an explanation of the event, and subsequent intentions.
All agreed that that was reasonable, but they were worried that the masks didn't work, and/or the bags didn't inflate. What about the kids etc.
I pointed out that these points are covered in the pre-flight emergencies demo.
Many blank faces, and some 'I don't bother with that, it's boring /rather read the paper/ snog me bird / scratch me ar*e / any other activity'
'I rest my case' said I. Maybe they'll listen next time.
But I doubt it.
In the case of Spanair, and the like, they get 'I don't have sufficient information to give an informed reply, let's wait for the AAIB report' (or equivalent for the pedants).
In this case I asked what did they expect:
Most wanted the crew to brief them immediately on what to do.I explained that they are busy saving their own skins first, and in the case of the pilots then going into a well practised routine to ensure the safety of the aircraft and all in it. The most they would get is a PA announcing an emergency descent, followed,once the aircraft was safely established in breathable air, an explanation of the event, and subsequent intentions.
All agreed that that was reasonable, but they were worried that the masks didn't work, and/or the bags didn't inflate. What about the kids etc.
I pointed out that these points are covered in the pre-flight emergencies demo.
Many blank faces, and some 'I don't bother with that, it's boring /rather read the paper/ snog me bird / scratch me ar*e / any other activity'
'I rest my case' said I. Maybe they'll listen next time.
But I doubt it.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accident/incident
This was an incident, not an accident. An MOR will have been filed, engineering have apparently fixed the aircraft (it is reported as flying again) and eventually the authorities will promulgate their findings based on the MOR and engineers reports. They might well not even have pulled the CVR.
Meanwhile, there are lots of people in RYR and more people to whom they have spoken in the bar, who will already know the cause.
I am not underestimating the unpleasant experience of the pax but this whole affair has been exaggerated to an ridiculous degree.
Meanwhile, there are lots of people in RYR and more people to whom they have spoken in the bar, who will already know the cause.
I am not underestimating the unpleasant experience of the pax but this whole affair has been exaggerated to an ridiculous degree.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Leverstock Green
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had this PA been made, far less passengers would have had ear pain......
How do you work that out? I find I often have blocked sinuses when an aircraft descends normally. Yup i get a sore head if I cannot clear my sinuses. I have no doubt if I am ever in an emergency descent something more extreme will happen. I doubt whether it will be alleviated by a calming coment from the cockpit.
Well done to crew, job well done
As a postscript. Colleagues were on their way back from the first Gulf War on Tarom. Plane had an emergency descent and masks came down . This time the kit was perished and tube broke all over the place. I doubt if things are so bad 15 years later
How do you work that out? I find I often have blocked sinuses when an aircraft descends normally. Yup i get a sore head if I cannot clear my sinuses. I have no doubt if I am ever in an emergency descent something more extreme will happen. I doubt whether it will be alleviated by a calming coment from the cockpit.
Well done to crew, job well done
As a postscript. Colleagues were on their way back from the first Gulf War on Tarom. Plane had an emergency descent and masks came down . This time the kit was perished and tube broke all over the place. I doubt if things are so bad 15 years later
In this case apparently no hull damage or missing doors , why divert to Limoges , Gerona wasn't far away and flight could have been continued unpressurised.
From all the evidence it's seems the decision to divert to Limoges was sound.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the idiot explorer had not been on board this thread would have stopped at page 3. He can sue me for saying so if he likes.
The fact that he managed to make so many stupid statements and that the BBC managed to believe all the rubbish he spouted in the first place just sums up how very stupid some passengers are and how very facile the BBC has become.
There are around 25 reportable incidents every week sent to the CAA and we spend two weeks and a thousand posts on a rather ordinary loss of cabin pressure.
The fact that he managed to make so many stupid statements and that the BBC managed to believe all the rubbish he spouted in the first place just sums up how very stupid some passengers are and how very facile the BBC has become.
There are around 25 reportable incidents every week sent to the CAA and we spend two weeks and a thousand posts on a rather ordinary loss of cabin pressure.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In my head
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
rubik, forgive me if I say the world doesn't need pilots describing loss of cabin pressure as ordinary, and who in addition wish us to know that they evidently have a net worth so great that they believe they are bombproof when they call named dissenters idiots.
I know enough to be sure that what Per Hadow said showed he observed trouble with the usage of the mickey mouse arrangements which still pass as emergency oxygen back up systems in all the world's airline fleet in 2008.
16 people went to hospital. That's one in ten.
Did you appreciate you might fly aircraft with mickey mouse back up systems in them? Evidently not. You've denied it vociferously.
Why not underline this thread with some real pro analysis and tell us why this incident could never have been a Helios? For those that have forgotten that's the one where just 1112 days ago, 121 died in a 737 because JAA trained/authorised people failed to understand the life support system they were tasked to operate as an integral part of the flying machine.
Their aircraft flew just fine. It's just that no-one puzzled what was happening and everybody died through lack of life support before it was time to land.
Are you now going to name any of the 121 lost that day 3 years ago as idiots too?
I know enough to be sure that what Per Hadow said showed he observed trouble with the usage of the mickey mouse arrangements which still pass as emergency oxygen back up systems in all the world's airline fleet in 2008.
16 people went to hospital. That's one in ten.
Did you appreciate you might fly aircraft with mickey mouse back up systems in them? Evidently not. You've denied it vociferously.
Why not underline this thread with some real pro analysis and tell us why this incident could never have been a Helios? For those that have forgotten that's the one where just 1112 days ago, 121 died in a 737 because JAA trained/authorised people failed to understand the life support system they were tasked to operate as an integral part of the flying machine.
Their aircraft flew just fine. It's just that no-one puzzled what was happening and everybody died through lack of life support before it was time to land.
Are you now going to name any of the 121 lost that day 3 years ago as idiots too?