Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
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Further gems from Hadowland were that 'it was totally unexpected'. Gosh...tell me Number One, is it time for the scheduled cabin depressurisation? No, Captain, that's scheduled for 10 minutes time'
We had a stewardess who used to like to play on her "Irishness". She once made the announcement:
"Will you strap in please as we are expecting some unexpected turbulence!"
If you're reading this Bridget...hello.
Jack
We had a stewardess who used to like to play on her "Irishness". She once made the announcement:
"Will you strap in please as we are expecting some unexpected turbulence!"
If you're reading this Bridget...hello.
Jack
Cabin announcement
I'm really quite surprised that as far as I can see no-one has mentioned the discussion in the cabin-crew board about unintelligable safety briefings http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/340...standable.html.
Any connection?
Jim
Any connection?
Jim
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Helios incident.
llondel,
"If you're dealing with an incident and have a high workload, the last thing you want is to have the mask suddenly drop down in front of you and obscure your vision. If your first sign of a problem is loss of cabin pressure then it might not matter, but if you're dealing with other issues and the cabin pressure reaches critical a few minutes into the event then you might not appreciate it."
Tell that to the Helios inquiry and the relatives.
DB
"If you're dealing with an incident and have a high workload, the last thing you want is to have the mask suddenly drop down in front of you and obscure your vision. If your first sign of a problem is loss of cabin pressure then it might not matter, but if you're dealing with other issues and the cabin pressure reaches critical a few minutes into the event then you might not appreciate it."
Tell that to the Helios inquiry and the relatives.
DB
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Has anyone any news as to the reason for the depressurisation?
It is highly unlikely that it is due to a bleed failure as that would require both bleeds to fail and the depressurisation should not be rapid, so it would point to some structural failure or a mechanical/electrical failure with the outflow valve.
It is highly unlikely that it is due to a bleed failure as that would require both bleeds to fail and the depressurisation should not be rapid, so it would point to some structural failure or a mechanical/electrical failure with the outflow valve.
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Thread drift alert.
I confess to not having looked at the Helios incident for some time now so forgive me if some definitive explanation has bypassed me but my understanding was that the flight crew never wore their masks or if they did they were ineffective. What difference then would drop-down masks have made? If they didn't respond to the annunciator and aural warning by donning the masks why would drop down masks have been worn?
If, due to a system fault, they never received a warning how would drop down masks have deployed anyway?
Originally Posted by Dream Buster
llondel,
"If you're dealing with an incident and have a high workload, the last thing you want is to have the mask suddenly drop down in front of you and obscure your vision. If your first sign of a problem is loss of cabin pressure then it might not matter, but if you're dealing with other issues and the cabin pressure reaches critical a few minutes into the event then you might not appreciate it."
Tell that to the Helios inquiry and the relatives.
"If you're dealing with an incident and have a high workload, the last thing you want is to have the mask suddenly drop down in front of you and obscure your vision. If your first sign of a problem is loss of cabin pressure then it might not matter, but if you're dealing with other issues and the cabin pressure reaches critical a few minutes into the event then you might not appreciate it."
Tell that to the Helios inquiry and the relatives.
I confess to not having looked at the Helios incident for some time now so forgive me if some definitive explanation has bypassed me but my understanding was that the flight crew never wore their masks or if they did they were ineffective. What difference then would drop-down masks have made? If they didn't respond to the annunciator and aural warning by donning the masks why would drop down masks have been worn?
If, due to a system fault, they never received a warning how would drop down masks have deployed anyway?
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Helios was caused by the pilots misundertanding the cabin altitude alert for a faulty take/off configuration alert (same alarm). At no point did they suspect a failiure to pressurise and they never donned their masks, unlike the passengers whose masks dropped down in front of them.
No doubt had the masks dropped down for the pilots they would have got the message, but instead they messed around calling maintenance slowly becoming hypoxic until it was too late.
No doubt had the masks dropped down for the pilots they would have got the message, but instead they messed around calling maintenance slowly becoming hypoxic until it was too late.
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Re: Things we know
Going back a few posts, BAFTABILL makes some good points, then spoils it a bit by criticising the "aggressive response to passengers who don't fully understand". I think the whole issue is covered by this statement. What I mean by this, is that any aggression, or scorn, exasperation etc, from within the profession is directed at those who cannot be bothered to listen to the safety announcements.
Yes, it is true that the 3 minute breifing cannot prepare everyone for every situation. (That's why it takes months, or years of training to do the job...)
But to take the operation of the drop-down masks as a specific example, all airlines give simple instructions regarding their use in every breifing.
And yes, it is also true that noise, fear or surprise will affect ones response to a situation. But so will reading the newspaper during the 3 minutes pax are asked to concentrate.
The real fury, however, is not for those who don't understand, but for those who think they do, having demonstrated that they do not, and who then claim to know better. Or just claim...
And don't call us fools, please.
Yes, it is true that the 3 minute breifing cannot prepare everyone for every situation. (That's why it takes months, or years of training to do the job...)
But to take the operation of the drop-down masks as a specific example, all airlines give simple instructions regarding their use in every breifing.
And yes, it is also true that noise, fear or surprise will affect ones response to a situation. But so will reading the newspaper during the 3 minutes pax are asked to concentrate.
The real fury, however, is not for those who don't understand, but for those who think they do, having demonstrated that they do not, and who then claim to know better. Or just claim...
And don't call us fools, please.
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As a passenger, surely there was some indication of loss of pressure (noise etc?)
You will only get it if you have a structural failure (door, window, floor...) as in this case you would have an explosive decompression with vapour and air sucked outside.
For the Ryanair airplane as they did not find any obvious reason for the depressurisation it is probably a failure of the air conditioning system giving a relatively slow depressurisation.
As for the plunge to the earth, it is nothing as dramatic as people imagine and I am pretty sure some can continue to sleep if nobody take care of them.
But I agree, passengers and even some cabin crew are frighten and need a good PA to comfort them.
A descent from 37,000 feet to 8,000 feet in around 5 minutes gives a descent rate of just under 6,000 fpm. I don't know what a rapid descent feels like in a 737, but 2,000 fpm in a PA28/34 is pretty dramatic, so I would guess that treble that rate in a big metal tube is fairly alarming. Combine that with the noise and sudden cold of a decompression and I can understand why passengers were scared. Baron Rouge - if you could sleep through that you're pretty unusual! 
The crew evidently did their jobs very well and if one thing comes out of this incident it's that passengers actually start listening to the pre-flight emergency briefing!
The crew evidently did their jobs very well and if one thing comes out of this incident it's that passengers actually start listening to the pre-flight emergency briefing!
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Put it simply, in my opinion, if you believe that the safety announcement prepares passengers fully for emergencies you are a fool.
1. Know how to fasten and unfasten a seatbelt - simple but how many people per flight actually have to be shown or have to ask?
2. Understand where the emergency exits are and how they operate - different on each aircraft and sometimes at each exit. Where is the nearest exit to you and what type is it? Who is sitting nearest and do they look like they will be able to react quicky in an emergency ( This is something cabin crew assess - who looks like they know what's going on and will be able to help in emergency?) What will you do if you see an exit is blocked by fire or is unavailable after a landing on water? Who is next to you? Do they look as if they have understood or listened to the briefing? You have, on average 90 seconds to make a safe exit in an emergency evacuation.
3. Where is your lifejacket - how do you put it on and when do you inflate ? Easy if you are standing in an aisle and have done it hunderd of times before but not if you are seated, possibly with only emergency lighting and smoke in the cabin. Think your way through the various steps and consider what might hinder you. Can you really tie a double bow at the side if you weigh 18 stone and are in the middle seat and haven't seen you feet since 1986?
4. When would O2 masks deploy? what does this mean? What do you do? who is sitting next to you? How serious would it be if there is a depressurisation? It happens infrequently - but does happen, hence the briefing and safety equipemnt
All the equipment and breifing is provided for pax safety, is simple to use properly and will save lives.
If you don't know how to use it you are the fool and if you don't understand ASK!
I don't imagine that P haddow went all the way to the frozen wastes with some sfety equipment and a briefing card on the basis that he would get a warning announcement and additional breifing if he needed to use it - just in case he wasn't actually paying much attention when it didn't really matter! - or maybe he did, seeing as such an intrepid explorer he seems not to have been able to locate his own gratitude to the crew and staff at Ryanair.
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From the Air Dolomiti thread.
You have to admit these words have a different tone?
There's no doubt that in an emergency, be it a fire or otherwise, people may do unwise things, elect to take inexplicable actions, and behave to put it mildly, in an odd manner. Some panic, some are at their best, and perhaps the majority experience combinations of sensory overload or senses of time compression...slow motion, swimming in glue, etc.
It's for that reason that directions must be very simple and leadership is required to focus.
Every place I've ever been seated in an exit row, I've been specifically directed to open the exit and provide assistance to others in leaving the airplane. Every briefing I've given, regardless of the size of the airplane, and this includes small Learjets and King Airs too, has included the same direction. It's also always included the direction to leave the airplane and move as far away as possible in an emergency, and not return.
Complex directions are hard to follow. Hard to remember. Leadership includes refreshing the evacuation order in real time as people are going out the door. This is what a flight attendant does. This is the chief purpose of a flight attendant, and the single most critical job that person does; supervise and conduct an evacuation, or attend to passenger welfare in an emergency. "Hi, my name's Sally, and I'll be your personal evacuation coordinator today."
Whether passengers bother to read them or not, most briefing cards with which I'm familiar include instructions to help others, and it's something (in the US, certainly) that the passengers seated in exit rows must verbally agree to do before the airplane is able to push back...the flight attendant must verbally ask every person seated in an exit row to verbally acknowledge that they are willing and able to perform the functions listed on the card, which include opening the exit and providing assistance to others in leaving the airplane.
These are known as "force multipliers," or people who are able to assist the crew and expand their presence by providing some measure of help.
I went back as a result of this thread to review our own crew evacuation duties, and lo and behold...they include clear directions on ensuring the safety of the passengers outside the aircraft. One crewmember is directed to leave with the passengers and tend to their safety. Perhaps the operation in question has no such direction. The point of my comments here, and clearly those of others, is that this event should be seen as a learning experience; if things aren't done right, rather than making excuses, then let's see what wasn't done right and put it right.
That's not so hard, is it?
It's for that reason that directions must be very simple and leadership is required to focus.
Every place I've ever been seated in an exit row, I've been specifically directed to open the exit and provide assistance to others in leaving the airplane. Every briefing I've given, regardless of the size of the airplane, and this includes small Learjets and King Airs too, has included the same direction. It's also always included the direction to leave the airplane and move as far away as possible in an emergency, and not return.
Complex directions are hard to follow. Hard to remember. Leadership includes refreshing the evacuation order in real time as people are going out the door. This is what a flight attendant does. This is the chief purpose of a flight attendant, and the single most critical job that person does; supervise and conduct an evacuation, or attend to passenger welfare in an emergency. "Hi, my name's Sally, and I'll be your personal evacuation coordinator today."
Whether passengers bother to read them or not, most briefing cards with which I'm familiar include instructions to help others, and it's something (in the US, certainly) that the passengers seated in exit rows must verbally agree to do before the airplane is able to push back...the flight attendant must verbally ask every person seated in an exit row to verbally acknowledge that they are willing and able to perform the functions listed on the card, which include opening the exit and providing assistance to others in leaving the airplane.
These are known as "force multipliers," or people who are able to assist the crew and expand their presence by providing some measure of help.
I went back as a result of this thread to review our own crew evacuation duties, and lo and behold...they include clear directions on ensuring the safety of the passengers outside the aircraft. One crewmember is directed to leave with the passengers and tend to their safety. Perhaps the operation in question has no such direction. The point of my comments here, and clearly those of others, is that this event should be seen as a learning experience; if things aren't done right, rather than making excuses, then let's see what wasn't done right and put it right.
That's not so hard, is it?
As far as I know, Ryanair aircraft seats have no seat pockets and there are no safety briefing cards. Instead, the emergency info is printed on the back of the seat in front of every passenger. Impossible to miss as itīs in front of your face. The first 3 pictures show how to use the oxygen masks, including pulling it down.
If Mr. Hadow didnīt see it he must be dumb AND blind.
If Mr. Hadow didnīt see it he must be dumb AND blind.
A descent from 37,000 feet to 8,000 feet in around 5 minutes gives a descent rate of just under 6,000 fpm. I don't know what a rapid descent feels like in a 737, but 2,000 fpm in a PA28/34 is pretty dramatic, so I would guess that treble that rate in a big metal tube is fairly alarming. Combine that with the noise and sudden cold of a decompression and I can understand why passengers were scared. Baron Rouge - if you could sleep through that you're pretty unusual!
There again perhaps we should remember that fear is there to keep us alive! Nature's normal reaction to a potential threat.
BigBurd, some good points there! One I would add is to figure out how you would get to two independent exits with your eyes closed. E.g. I have to count "x" seat backs to get to the overwing, etc. This means that even if the cabin is full of smoke you stand a much better chance of finding the exit.
Whilst we are mentioning lifejackets I would suggest that most ditching these days are "unpremeditated" - ie. a/c goes off end of runway on take off or landing at an airport on the coast and suddenly ends up in the water so you probably won't have a chance to put a lifejacket on. I stress that this is not a reason for not knowing how the lifejacket worns and how to don it but I believe many internal flights in the USA do not carry lifejackets and that they suggest passengers use the seat cushion as a flotation device.
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Originally Posted by nick s
Helios was caused by the pilots misundertanding the cabin altitude alert for a faulty take/off configuration alert (same alarm).
See? Told you I'd missed something.
Does anyone have a link? Googled and searched with no joy.
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Helios
Helios was caused by the pilots misundertanding the cabin altitude alert for a faulty take/off configuration alert (same alarm). At no point did they suspect a failiure to pressurise and they never donned their masks, unlike the passengers whose masks dropped down in front of them.
No doubt had the masks dropped down for the pilots they would have got the message, but instead they messed around calling maintenance slowly becoming hypoxic until it was too late.
No doubt had the masks dropped down for the pilots they would have got the message, but instead they messed around calling maintenance slowly becoming hypoxic until it was too late.
If, as seems to be the concensus here, pax were aware of what usually happens in the event of a depressurisation event (ie sudden descent to a safe altitude), perhaps someone might have caused enough of a ruckus to eventually get through to the crew on the ill-fated Helios flight.
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A reply to carbis22
stick to what you know and we do what we know....I dont go onto doctors/dentists/journos forums taking rubbish about who pays who or what and whos to blame...... this a simple failure of a mechanical system on a machine which we as aircrew are trained to deal with.....the crew here got the a/c to a safe alt and then to an airport safely and with minimal damage to anyone........as the QF crew did recently.
your inference and ignorance are not appreciated....like I said STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW OR THINK YOU KNOW dr
your inference and ignorance are not appreciated....like I said STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW OR THINK YOU KNOW dr
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Thread drift correction....
Flintstone,
"I confess to not having looked at the Helios incident for some time now so forgive me if some definitive explanation has bypassed me but my understanding was that the flight crew never wore their masks or if they did they were ineffective. What difference then would drop-down masks have made? If they didn't respond to the annunciator and aural warning by donning the masks why would drop down masks have been worn?"
Simply put, if the crew miss ALL the clues and then whilst drifting into unconciousness....
.... happen to notice an O2 mask dangling down in front of them - they might put it on and save their souls?
Would it help or wouldn't it - when anyone is most likely to XXXXer it all up?
I do realise that there are some super human aces out there; but many of us are just ordinary mortals - who make the odd mistake.
DB
"I confess to not having looked at the Helios incident for some time now so forgive me if some definitive explanation has bypassed me but my understanding was that the flight crew never wore their masks or if they did they were ineffective. What difference then would drop-down masks have made? If they didn't respond to the annunciator and aural warning by donning the masks why would drop down masks have been worn?"
Simply put, if the crew miss ALL the clues and then whilst drifting into unconciousness....
.... happen to notice an O2 mask dangling down in front of them - they might put it on and save their souls? Would it help or wouldn't it - when anyone is most likely to XXXXer it all up?
I do realise that there are some super human aces out there; but many of us are just ordinary mortals - who make the odd mistake.
DB
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For those here who don't understand why the heck many of our otherwise intelligent pax seem incapable of understanding even the simplest safety instructions, and for baftabill and other non-aviation people who think that we as crew should be doing more to prepare our sublimely uninterested SLF for the eventuality of an emergency: link