Ryanair Loss of Pressurisation 25th Aug
At the end of the day, crews are highly trained for these situations
Yes - they may have received simulator training and had all the boxes ticked BUT we all know some pilots who in reality would never cope if forced to conduct an emergency descent with one pilot incapacitated. Usually these characters are known slackers but have been in the game for a few years and still lack the drive for excellence. As loss of consciousness by one of the two cockpit crew during the immediate aftermath of a rapid depressurisation is a significant possibility, perhaps simulator training should include training for that event - ie single pilot operation emergency descent. That would sort out the competent from the incompetent in such a serious situation.
I think some posters here need to get real - anything mechanical can fail (even the hard disk on your computer!) - almost every airline thats been around for a while has had an a/c or two which has had to do an emergency descent due pressurisation problems. If correctly handled then it's a non-event from the perspective of professional flight crew.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fylde Coast
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reassured
As fairly infrequent and anxious SLF I am feeling very reassured that should there be an emergency then I can trust the crew to deal with it.
I cannot imagine how frightened the PAX were but I find Pen Haddow's comments infuriating (thought he was an 'explorer' and not an experienced pilot!) and how dare he be so unchivalrous as to say the lady in the row in front was whimpering (bet he was macho man!)
I say 'respect' to the crew of the flight and I am finding that the more information I have then the less worried I become. I will now know what to do and how to do it although I will still be anxious if I ever find myself in that position
Well done Ryanair
I cannot imagine how frightened the PAX were but I find Pen Haddow's comments infuriating (thought he was an 'explorer' and not an experienced pilot!) and how dare he be so unchivalrous as to say the lady in the row in front was whimpering (bet he was macho man!)
I say 'respect' to the crew of the flight and I am finding that the more information I have then the less worried I become. I will now know what to do and how to do it although I will still be anxious if I ever find myself in that position
Well done Ryanair
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Centaurus
Yeah, and lets make them do it with one arm tied behind their back, oh and blindfolded, and why not with a total electrical failure at night to boot.
Don't you just love those mucho-macho training scenarios. Oh, better throw in a mid-air on the way down, coz sure as hell no one is looking out.
Since most decompressions are usually a bit less than explosive, sure there is a possibility of incapacitation, but lets not start demanding that we operate the aircraft single crew in all circumstances for a one in a million chance
Otherwise next off the airlines will be demanding that it is certified for single crew ops, only half-joking there.
Yeah, and lets make them do it with one arm tied behind their back, oh and blindfolded, and why not with a total electrical failure at night to boot.
Don't you just love those mucho-macho training scenarios. Oh, better throw in a mid-air on the way down, coz sure as hell no one is looking out.
Since most decompressions are usually a bit less than explosive, sure there is a possibility of incapacitation, but lets not start demanding that we operate the aircraft single crew in all circumstances for a one in a million chance
Otherwise next off the airlines will be demanding that it is certified for single crew ops, only half-joking there.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sesame Street
Age: 53
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slip and turn - do you read the posts or just have difficulty understanding English?
A rapid depressurisation is not a planned part of any flight and it is therefore impossible to prepare the public for such a sitaution. Confused or not, Penn Haddow ( is that his real name) clearly understood the safety breifing sufficently to don his O2 mask. In doing so he was saved from the effects of Hypoxia.
According to some sources the time of useful consciuosness after a sudden depressurisation at FL38 might be as short as between 15 and 45 seconds. Within this period the flight crew have to perform immediate actions and don masks. The deployment of pax O2 is automatic and triggered by barometric control.
Pulling the mask releases the supply via the manifold. Therefore, if one mask works at any station they should all have the potential to work - i.e. there is a supply.
Had any of the masks NOT been working - some of the passengers would have fallen unconscious during the descent. No -one was reported to have been unconscious - otherwise how would they have known their masks weren't working?
With emergency O2, Passenger announcements are impossible - the forest of masks is usually the only indication of what has occured and any pax announcement might distract and actually serve to confuse and disorientate some passengers.
On the basis that Penn Haddow clearly understood that there was an emergency - what was he hoping to glean from any announcement?
" Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Speaking, we're sorry that you've spilled your coffee but we had to stand the aircraft on its nose because the cabin air has suddenly gone and we need to get back down to a breathable atmosphere.. if we don't level out you can assume that we have a much bigger problem ... but don't worry ... we'll be in touch to let you know... Oh, and remember , for those of you who weren't actually watching or listening to the safety brief... pull the mask towards you to release the oxygen supply, fix your mask before helping others.... and , is Penn a real name?"
No, I don't know what casued the depressurisation and actually,at this stage, I don't really care . What I do know is that this can happen on any flight at any time and if you don't prepare you won't be ready.
A rapid depressurisation is not a planned part of any flight and it is therefore impossible to prepare the public for such a sitaution. Confused or not, Penn Haddow ( is that his real name) clearly understood the safety breifing sufficently to don his O2 mask. In doing so he was saved from the effects of Hypoxia.
According to some sources the time of useful consciuosness after a sudden depressurisation at FL38 might be as short as between 15 and 45 seconds. Within this period the flight crew have to perform immediate actions and don masks. The deployment of pax O2 is automatic and triggered by barometric control.
Pulling the mask releases the supply via the manifold. Therefore, if one mask works at any station they should all have the potential to work - i.e. there is a supply.
Had any of the masks NOT been working - some of the passengers would have fallen unconscious during the descent. No -one was reported to have been unconscious - otherwise how would they have known their masks weren't working?
With emergency O2, Passenger announcements are impossible - the forest of masks is usually the only indication of what has occured and any pax announcement might distract and actually serve to confuse and disorientate some passengers.
On the basis that Penn Haddow clearly understood that there was an emergency - what was he hoping to glean from any announcement?
" Ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Speaking, we're sorry that you've spilled your coffee but we had to stand the aircraft on its nose because the cabin air has suddenly gone and we need to get back down to a breathable atmosphere.. if we don't level out you can assume that we have a much bigger problem ... but don't worry ... we'll be in touch to let you know... Oh, and remember , for those of you who weren't actually watching or listening to the safety brief... pull the mask towards you to release the oxygen supply, fix your mask before helping others.... and , is Penn a real name?"
No, I don't know what casued the depressurisation and actually,at this stage, I don't really care . What I do know is that this can happen on any flight at any time and if you don't prepare you won't be ready.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have experience of two rapid decompressions, one in a military jet, the second in an airliner. The military jet was a non event - except for my $12 Casio which exploded.
In the airliner an outflow valve - the valve which controls the rate at which air leaves the pressure hull - suddenly, and inexplicably, ran to the full open position. The climb through 34000ft changed very quickly to a descent to 10000ft. Because of the aircraft performance - it has the aerodynamics of a house brick - and the pressurisation system doing it's best to compensate we managed to get down before the cabin went through 14000ft and the masks dropped.
The failure of the valve couldn't be anticipated nor was it down to shoddy maintenance; it simply was a failure of an electro-mechanical component.
Every time you drive your car you make the assumption that the brakes will work when you press the pedal or that the the steering will work when you want to turn...but there is always the chance that they won't.
In the airliner an outflow valve - the valve which controls the rate at which air leaves the pressure hull - suddenly, and inexplicably, ran to the full open position. The climb through 34000ft changed very quickly to a descent to 10000ft. Because of the aircraft performance - it has the aerodynamics of a house brick - and the pressurisation system doing it's best to compensate we managed to get down before the cabin went through 14000ft and the masks dropped.
The failure of the valve couldn't be anticipated nor was it down to shoddy maintenance; it simply was a failure of an electro-mechanical component.
Every time you drive your car you make the assumption that the brakes will work when you press the pedal or that the the steering will work when you want to turn...but there is always the chance that they won't.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lancing, Sussex
Age: 92
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair loss of pressurization
As a reasonably frequent SLF and ex national service aircrew, I did not know until read in this forum, that the object of "pulling down the mask" as in the safety instructions was to pull a pin out with the lanyard..Perhaps this could be made clear in the instructions. As far as altitude goes, I regularly flew sorties at around 20,000 with only occasional gulps of 02, as I could not see the Nav chart easily with mask on.
I do not know what the cabin altitude reduced to, but if did not get all the way down to cruise altitude it may be that passengers did not notice oxygen as there was still enough cabin air.
I do not know what the cabin altitude reduced to, but if did not get all the way down to cruise altitude it may be that passengers did not notice oxygen as there was still enough cabin air.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do all 737 have an automatic PA tape that plays in a decompression as well? Ours do, the only proviso being it may not activate. The only PA I've been advised to do as cabin crew is to advise them that the smell of burning is normal and is the o2 generators working.
I did not know until read in this forum, that the object of "pulling down the mask" as in the safety instructions was to pull a pin out with the lanyard.
I don't know the intracacies of my computer but it usually works quite well.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Auto drop down for pilots?
Ladies and Gentlemen,
The one mystery of decompressions is why don't the pilots get an auto drop down O2 mask (just like the passengers) but have to 'work out' that they might need one (from a noisey alarm and a big red light) and then put them on manually?
Maybe there are such systems, but I only knew the manual type.
This seems like an accident waiting to happen.
Any thoughts on a bit of assistance - at time of high stress?
Win, win etc.
DB
The one mystery of decompressions is why don't the pilots get an auto drop down O2 mask (just like the passengers) but have to 'work out' that they might need one (from a noisey alarm and a big red light) and then put them on manually?
Maybe there are such systems, but I only knew the manual type.
This seems like an accident waiting to happen.
Any thoughts on a bit of assistance - at time of high stress?
Win, win etc.
DB
Guest
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere between E17487 and F75775
Age: 80
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Missing the Telegraph Graphics
Hey 13th Duke - you mention
No one has yet congratulated the pilots on managing to miss crashing into both Mt Everest and Mt Blanc on the way down. Well done chaps.
...but ignore the fact they also missed the Eiffel Tower.
Wonder if Pen (Drive) Hadow knows ?
R
No one has yet congratulated the pilots on managing to miss crashing into both Mt Everest and Mt Blanc on the way down. Well done chaps.
...but ignore the fact they also missed the Eiffel Tower.
Wonder if Pen (Drive) Hadow knows ?
R
A surprising by-product of this event is the number of articles in the popular press (even as far down as "Metro", or on the BBC website), about "what to do if the masks come down". All I have seen so far have been reasonably well written, little sensationalism, and probably by aircrew as they use expressions such as the masks "deploy", which I would guess is a word beyond the normal skills of a Metro journalist.
But why is it felt that there will be an interest in this among the general readership, when in the repeated briefings given in the cabin at the start of flight there is such little interest by many of the pax ?
The press still have not worked out that with the aircrew totally preoccupied with managing the descent, and both them and cabin crew on oxygen, picking up a microphone to make a cabin PA is more than a little impractical.
The issue of prerecorded announcements is one for individual airline decision, but those who have these installed have had occasions when the announcement has been inadvertently activated, which leads to panic in the cabin for a short while, and then THAT gets the airline into the press. However the noise in the cabin during the descent, from the speedbrakes, the oxy generators, pressure issues with people's ears, whatever, probably makes them inaudible anyway. It's bad enough with standard announcements. And that is why you are told what to do before the flight commences.
But why is it felt that there will be an interest in this among the general readership, when in the repeated briefings given in the cabin at the start of flight there is such little interest by many of the pax ?
The press still have not worked out that with the aircrew totally preoccupied with managing the descent, and both them and cabin crew on oxygen, picking up a microphone to make a cabin PA is more than a little impractical.
The issue of prerecorded announcements is one for individual airline decision, but those who have these installed have had occasions when the announcement has been inadvertently activated, which leads to panic in the cabin for a short while, and then THAT gets the airline into the press. However the noise in the cabin during the descent, from the speedbrakes, the oxy generators, pressure issues with people's ears, whatever, probably makes them inaudible anyway. It's bad enough with standard announcements. And that is why you are told what to do before the flight commences.
Every time you drive your car you make the assumption that the brakes will work when you press the pedal or that the the steering will work when you want to turn...but there is always the chance that they won't.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OFSO
They also failed to congratulate them for disembarking at the terminal and not in the mud. . . . Ouch
People have just got no appreciation of good service these days.
They also failed to congratulate them for disembarking at the terminal and not in the mud. . . . Ouch
People have just got no appreciation of good service these days.
Car brakes have dual hydraulic circuits for backup. You would think such an important component in a aircraft would have a backup and also a fail-safe mode.
Am sure it's been thought of but a fail-safe mode for pressurisation is a bit problematical - sometimes you want more air in the cabin and sometimes less - overpressure can be a hazard too (ok there are pressure relief valves but these could fail also).
There are different ways of controlling the outflow valve but as has been stated anything mechanical can fail. This is why crews are trained to deal with this eventuality.
Maybe air travel has become so reliable that passengers have losted touch with reality. Decades ago a/c were far less reliable and "emergencies" due to mechanical failures much more common. When's the last time you heard of an airliner suffering structural failure? Recall an article written by a pilot who had entered aviation in the days of Constellations and StratoCruisers. In those days it was almost an everyday occurence to shut an engine down on an Atlantic crossing due loss of oil etc. Said pilot converted to the B 707 and after 8 years realised he had not had one engine failure since he's been on the type.
I am sure if anyone could design a failure proof aircraft they would but this is a dream which is doubtless impossible.
The Irish Times article says French experts have been inspecting the Ryanair a/c but found no obvious faults so far:
Experts examine Ryanair jet after cabin pressure fault - The Irish Times - Wed, Aug 27, 2008
Experts examine Ryanair jet after cabin pressure fault - The Irish Times - Wed, Aug 27, 2008
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does "knowingly asleep" mean? - given the panic described by most of the passengers how many people were knowingly asleep?
And, if you are knowingly, or even unknowingly asleep, does that mean that you can survive without oxygen?
I don't know if Big Burd's figures are right or not but I would be suprised if many people can sleep through an emergency descent. Presumably, if you find yourself next 'sleep and turn' in such circumstances you might do him the kindness of passing him an oxygen mask.
8,000 ft would be normal as the cabin is usually pressurised to this level. The air is breathable and it is a safe height. Clearly, this would not be appropriate over the Alps or Pyrenees!
I'm always amazed how many armchair experts we have! Keep it up chaps! - perhaps with the exception of 'slip and burn!'
And, if you are knowingly, or even unknowingly asleep, does that mean that you can survive without oxygen?
I don't know if Big Burd's figures are right or not but I would be suprised if many people can sleep through an emergency descent. Presumably, if you find yourself next 'sleep and turn' in such circumstances you might do him the kindness of passing him an oxygen mask.
8,000 ft would be normal as the cabin is usually pressurised to this level. The air is breathable and it is a safe height. Clearly, this would not be appropriate over the Alps or Pyrenees!
I'm always amazed how many armchair experts we have! Keep it up chaps! - perhaps with the exception of 'slip and burn!'
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Haute Vienne France
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More news from the French 'rag'; Charlotte Thornton a 22 year old medical student from Southampton managed to text her mum that she loved her during the plunge.
www.lepopulaire.fr - Grand Limoges - j ai envoye un texto a ma mere en lui disant qu on plongeait video
The biggest problem with Ryanair has to be other passengers.
www.lepopulaire.fr - Grand Limoges - j ai envoye un texto a ma mere en lui disant qu on plongeait video
The biggest problem with Ryanair has to be other passengers.
Some posters seem unaware that it is possible to do a PA from the F/D via the oxy mask mike, although the audibility in the cabin might be dubious. Having initiated the descent & completed the QRH items, there will be several minutes of reduced work load. Time criticality is now less severe - diversion can be planned at a more comfortable pace once the aircraft is in breathable air, assuming their are no other problems dictating an immediate landing.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 81
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Text message at Fl370??
As cellular towers on terra firma are,to the best of my knowledge, pointed in a downward direction how is it possible for a pax to use it above a very low altitude?
I have tried to use my cellular phone while at 8,000 without success. And before anyone jumps all over me it was my a/c and not a transport.
I have tried to use my cellular phone while at 8,000 without success. And before anyone jumps all over me it was my a/c and not a transport.