Spanair accident at Madrid
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another thing I always wanted to mention but... I noticed several times, in almost zero wind weather conditions, that IBERIA pilots use lots of rudder inputs during the take-off run, making the plane zigzagging along the runway, (on 767, A320 and MD83) a quite annoying and worrying technique for passengers. Has this something to do with their pilot training?
Yes, I've noticed too, but only with crosswinds or when making a running T/O.
Maybe you feel it because you were seated in the last rows. If you are seated in the front ones, this sensation is less annoying .
By the way, Iberia hasn't 767's in its fleet, probably you flew in an A 321.
BR
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Some years ago, I witnessed the fallout of a cabin crew 'incident'. One of the flight attendants had enjoyed a passionate weekend in Sydney with a boyfriend. Come tearful time to go, how could she stop? So, on taxi out, she came up with 'I can smell smoke!'. Despite nobody else being able to sniff the meerest whiff she insisted she had been smelling smoke. that was it, 747 flight and hundreds of people delayed a night for technical reasons. She got her extra time with her boyfriend and obviously managed to leave at a later date.
So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin? When I have got a perfectly good flap gauge? And God forbid after this thread, we are going to have fools pelting up to the flight deck and hammering on the door 'flaps are not down!/'I can see ice on the wing!'/'have you seen that storm out west!'/'there's a panel open on the wing!'. No way, I wouldn't have it! It will be utterly ignored.
So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin? When I have got a perfectly good flap gauge? And God forbid after this thread, we are going to have fools pelting up to the flight deck and hammering on the door 'flaps are not down!/'I can see ice on the wing!'/'have you seen that storm out west!'/'there's a panel open on the wing!'. No way, I wouldn't have it! It will be utterly ignored.
PJ2 post says it all... I lost count of how many times the word training he used in the post... what will you be without the proper training?
Regards
AN
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So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin? When I have got a perfectly good flap gauge? And God forbid after this thread, we are going to have fools pelting up to the flight deck and hammering on the door 'flaps are not down!/'I can see ice on the wing!'/'have you seen that storm out west!'/'there's a panel open on the wing!'. No way, I wouldn't have it! It will be utterly ignored.
I personally have no tolerance for such nonsence.
If CC have proven reliable in some circumstances, they will be listenened to....otherwise totally and completely ignored.
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If CC have proven reliable in some circumstances, they will be listenened to....otherwise totally and completely ignored.
The trouble with making statements such as we always take off with a particular config is that another operator may have completely different ways of operating the same aircraft.
Hetfield mentions that the majority of his take-offs in an A300 are slat only yet in my airline with the same aircraft we usually use flap 15 or sometimes 20.Both airlines have decided to use whichever is the best config for their route structure and flex policy.
Unless you have that airlines takeoff performance charts in front of you how can you ever tell what is the correct config on the day or whether the correct config is set?
If I am going to do a slat only take-off I will brief the cabin crew as the ground roll is usually much longer than normal.We only do these in BAH on hot days/nights.
Hetfield mentions that the majority of his take-offs in an A300 are slat only yet in my airline with the same aircraft we usually use flap 15 or sometimes 20.Both airlines have decided to use whichever is the best config for their route structure and flex policy.
Unless you have that airlines takeoff performance charts in front of you how can you ever tell what is the correct config on the day or whether the correct config is set?
If I am going to do a slat only take-off I will brief the cabin crew as the ground roll is usually much longer than normal.We only do these in BAH on hot days/nights.
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The best answer is this:
PA from pilot: Ladies and gentlemen, our flaps are set for takeoff, the checklist is complete and we ask you to fasten your seat belts and relax. Flight Attendants, prepare for takeoff.
PA from pilot: Ladies and gentlemen, our flaps are set for takeoff, the checklist is complete and we ask you to fasten your seat belts and relax. Flight Attendants, prepare for takeoff.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Seems to me that there are a couple of suggestions to improve safety
1/ Have no obstructions/gullys on airports
2/ Get cabin crew to check flaps & slats
Now this is a forum and has no regulatory powers or influence, so perhaps the proponents of these ideas would be better spending their time writing to the international regulatory bodies and making their case to them I'm sure the relevent addresses are obtainable from the internet.
1/ Have no obstructions/gullys on airports
2/ Get cabin crew to check flaps & slats
Now this is a forum and has no regulatory powers or influence, so perhaps the proponents of these ideas would be better spending their time writing to the international regulatory bodies and making their case to them I'm sure the relevent addresses are obtainable from the internet.
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The A300 sure as Hell does
Rainboe,
Picture one of your children undergoing complicated surgery by an
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?
XPM
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CC Awareness
I seem to remember reading in this thread somewhere that a survivor sitting near/next to, a dead-heading F/O / Captain saying something like "something weird here" during takeoff run.
Makes you think.
Makes you think.
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Instruments can lie - if the flight deck instruments are telling you one thing and the cabin crew another, it's always worth confirming which is correct. How many times has a CB popped out for no apparent reason, or an alarm turned out to be a faulty sensor?
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Picture one of your children undergoing complicated surgery by an
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?
XPM
expert surgeon.
During the operation a nurse sees what she believes is a
fatal mistake about to be made by the surgeon.
In your opinion, what should she do?
XPM
If in doubt ask ,how many mistakes have been made when people have assumed something,or been afraid to ask/mention something.
You donīt want to know how many people die without valid reason while on the operating table, how many people get operated on the wrong part of their body or based on a wrong diagnose.
CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage.
While I think the professional aviation community is already working on it since 1977....
They (doctors/nurses etc..) in the operating room and anywhere else in the hospital can learn (at least something..) from us...
Sorry, but thats the truth...
CRM in the operating room is still in a developing stage.
While I think the professional aviation community is already working on it since 1977....
They (doctors/nurses etc..) in the operating room and anywhere else in the hospital can learn (at least something..) from us...
Sorry, but thats the truth...
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Back in the 80s while boarding a Dan-Air 727 (all service vehicles now departed) front section, noticed and open access panel. Um I thought, maybe the F/O missed this on his walk around (before the service people departed?) so I brought this to the attention of cc. Two minutes later F/O leaves the f/d, down steps and has a looksie.
Now, this might have not had any detrimental effect on the safety of the a/c prior to take off, but it must have raised concern on the f/d as to the open access flap/hatch, forward/underside of the port wing. Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.
Daz
Now, this might have not had any detrimental effect on the safety of the a/c prior to take off, but it must have raised concern on the f/d as to the open access flap/hatch, forward/underside of the port wing. Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.
Daz
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So I am supposed to rely on an unreliable source from the cabin?
So, be careful not to generalise. Some of us back there do keep a sensible lookout and to doubt could be somones undoing!
GS
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Thanks PJ2
My point is that while it seems that having cabin crew check flap/slats is a good idea to this SLF, one thing I have learnt from pprune is that an improvemnt in one area may cause greater problems in another area. As the goal is to reduce the overall risk, not specific risk of one situation, any change in procedure must be subject to an overall risk evaluation. If it costs little to nothing and does not increase the risk of another problem, then it is hard to argue agaist.
Rainboe's example of the smell smoke is a good example of the cry wolf situation and associated costs, and must be considered in this evaluation. PJ2 makes the point of routine, yet IF this accident is due to flaps/slats, then perhaps part of the problem is that the flight crew's routine was altered. In such cases there is always the chance that the cc's routine would have caught it. In this situation, perhpas having cc do visual checks may be a good idea (assuming again it does not increase other risks).
Again, I am not suggesting either course of action, just trying to understand by frameworking for the discussion.
My point is that while it seems that having cabin crew check flap/slats is a good idea to this SLF, one thing I have learnt from pprune is that an improvemnt in one area may cause greater problems in another area. As the goal is to reduce the overall risk, not specific risk of one situation, any change in procedure must be subject to an overall risk evaluation. If it costs little to nothing and does not increase the risk of another problem, then it is hard to argue agaist.
Rainboe's example of the smell smoke is a good example of the cry wolf situation and associated costs, and must be considered in this evaluation. PJ2 makes the point of routine, yet IF this accident is due to flaps/slats, then perhaps part of the problem is that the flight crew's routine was altered. In such cases there is always the chance that the cc's routine would have caught it. In this situation, perhpas having cc do visual checks may be a good idea (assuming again it does not increase other risks).
Again, I am not suggesting either course of action, just trying to understand by frameworking for the discussion.
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Might be a good idea that the walk around check would be more beneficial when service vehicles and support peoples have departed the vicinity of the a/c. Just a though.
They also personally close all cargo doors.
We leave nothing to chance in the ad-hoc charter business.
Nothing
We have all experienced personnel at our company, no 'instant experts' allowed.