Spanair accident at Madrid
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Folks.
Can you please stop posting variations on the 'XXX dead. XX survivors' theme? Just about every permutation of the numbers has been given earlier in the thread.
The fact that some of you see fit to create new personae for this purpose is somewhat bemusing.
Duck
Can you please stop posting variations on the 'XXX dead. XX survivors' theme? Just about every permutation of the numbers has been given earlier in the thread.
The fact that some of you see fit to create new personae for this purpose is somewhat bemusing.
Duck
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Really sorry to hear about this, lets all remember though that the press'll be all over this thread asking 'could it be?/'what do you think' questions that will be put into the tabloids so less of the stupid comments by some please..
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"The flight had a code-sharing arrangement with the Lufthansa flight LH255, indicating there may have been many Germans on board".
That's not really how codeshares work is it now ? Just because it has a codeshare flightnumber doesn't mean it is going to be packed with nationals of that country. God the press can be annoying sometimes...
That's not really how codeshares work is it now ? Just because it has a codeshare flightnumber doesn't mean it is going to be packed with nationals of that country. God the press can be annoying sometimes...
DC-9
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In the good old days (i.e. when I was young) all newspapers as well as the broadcast media has an "Air Correspondent". Usually ex-service pilotsand/or engineers, they knew what they were talking about and were invariably extremely sensitive when there was a fatal accident to report on. These days, seems that the first available bod gets the job, with the dismal results that we've all seen and heard over the past few days.
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"The flight had a code-sharing arrangement with the Lufthansa flight LH255, indicating there may have been many Germans on board".
That's not really how codeshares work is it now ? Just because it has a codeshare flightnumber doesn't mean it is going to be packed with nationals of that country. God the press can be annoying sometimes...
That's not really how codeshares work is it now ? Just because it has a codeshare flightnumber doesn't mean it is going to be packed with nationals of that country. God the press can be annoying sometimes...
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maths
sorry not meaning to contradict the moderator, but perhaps its useful to summarise the two facts that seem to stand out, mainly because enough time has passed now:
SAS spokesperson (who we all seem to agree is very reliable) said 172 souls on board
consistent local reports saying only 28 evacuated (its the same number in all Spanish media at the moment, as is based on confirmed hospital reports), again should be reliable at this stage, one of whom died
therefore do the maths: = 145 dead
the rest of speculation is due to crappy reporting, as well as the standard practise of announcing the number of dead according to actual bodies recovered
again as a SLF I am interested to know which section the survivors came from (one post about it being safer at the back sound like nonsense to me given thats where the engines are !)
SAS spokesperson (who we all seem to agree is very reliable) said 172 souls on board
consistent local reports saying only 28 evacuated (its the same number in all Spanish media at the moment, as is based on confirmed hospital reports), again should be reliable at this stage, one of whom died
therefore do the maths: = 145 dead
the rest of speculation is due to crappy reporting, as well as the standard practise of announcing the number of dead according to actual bodies recovered
again as a SLF I am interested to know which section the survivors came from (one post about it being safer at the back sound like nonsense to me given thats where the engines are !)
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jo
You've not seen how many posts we've had to delete because they were either irrelevent, inappropriate or (as I said above) from people merely logging in to quote some numbers they just heard without even bothering to read the rest of the thread. It clouds the subject for those seeking genuine information.
Duck
You've not seen how many posts we've had to delete because they were either irrelevent, inappropriate or (as I said above) from people merely logging in to quote some numbers they just heard without even bothering to read the rest of the thread. It clouds the subject for those seeking genuine information.
Duck
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Spanair doesn't operate FRA-MAD-LPA - they have 3 FRA-MAD flights per day feeding onto all other JK MAD departures throughout the JK system. The LPA flight only has an LH codeshare because Spanair is a Star Alliance member. It is more than possible that German nationals were onboard but there are a lot of direct FRA-LPA flights in summer so I dont think it would be a large number.
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This is very sad.
What gets me it looks like over running has lead the airplane to crash off an elevated runway end which I'm sure is responsible for the seriousness of this accident.
When are ICAO EASA etc going to mandate Engineered Material Arresting Systems at the end of all runways. If this was in place in Madrid then this would be a serious incident not a fatal accident.
Airports are making record profits but refuse to spend money on these safety features and should be held accountable.
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...2156&Tabid=256
What gets me it looks like over running has lead the airplane to crash off an elevated runway end which I'm sure is responsible for the seriousness of this accident.
When are ICAO EASA etc going to mandate Engineered Material Arresting Systems at the end of all runways. If this was in place in Madrid then this would be a serious incident not a fatal accident.
Airports are making record profits but refuse to spend money on these safety features and should be held accountable.
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...2156&Tabid=256
jotape
Exactly! there isn't one. Which is why i find an 'expert' going on the BBC and stating that there is, constitutes shear stupidity. Saying sit on top of the 'black box' is a bit of a red herring, and a sure fire way to panic the public. The crash at Souix city where the aircraft did cartwheels at 200 mph saw the guys from the front walk away. Many on the media and indeed this forum should learn to be a little more considerate and brief with their words following an accident.
I am interested to know which section the survivors came from (one post about it being safer at the back sound like nonsense to me given thats where the engines are !)
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Fully aware that it is too early for speculation, and with due respect to the tragedy of the event, a few points raised here have caught my attention.
As an MD-80 pilot myself, I have noticed that some guys tend to rotate the aircraft too quickly, establishing the 18-ish degree ANU a little too rapidly for their own good. Add to that the length of the airplane and the large moments involved during engine loss, and you might have a disastrous combination if the engine fails at TO, causing wing-to-wing amplitudes that take some sorting out. I have seen it on the simulator, more than once. Seeing how someone wrote that the airplane hit the ground with the wing (if that came from a reliable source)...
Not trying to assign blame based on nothing, just trying to share what I have seen before.
****ty fracking day.
As an MD-80 pilot myself, I have noticed that some guys tend to rotate the aircraft too quickly, establishing the 18-ish degree ANU a little too rapidly for their own good. Add to that the length of the airplane and the large moments involved during engine loss, and you might have a disastrous combination if the engine fails at TO, causing wing-to-wing amplitudes that take some sorting out. I have seen it on the simulator, more than once. Seeing how someone wrote that the airplane hit the ground with the wing (if that came from a reliable source)...
Not trying to assign blame based on nothing, just trying to share what I have seen before.
****ty fracking day.
Last edited by Max Stryker; 20th Aug 2008 at 16:51.
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Antman,
Re: EMAS.
So far only the very first news reports mention an 'overrun'. The aircraft seems to have ended up between the runways. So 'EMAS' is irrelevant for the moment. Let's keep this on topic?
Re: EMAS.
So far only the very first news reports mention an 'overrun'. The aircraft seems to have ended up between the runways. So 'EMAS' is irrelevant for the moment. Let's keep this on topic?
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barajas
although MAD seems to be blessed by a lot of space (as compared to my home airport LHR...), since the expansion I can't help thinking that the runways are designed a little strangely and somewhat not reassuringly
I mean just imagine if this flight was taking off in the other direction, or going east-west from one of the older runways - we would be talking not only Spanair but also crash into terminals and/or parked aircraft
ADDED DETAIL:
crash took place on 36L, but same runway other way round (18R) would mean crashing into parked aircraft (if in straight line), hangars, and even pax terminals if veered of straight line
same potential issue if taking off from 33L or 15L
note: this is because of the rather peculiar way of constructing the new terminal/satellite pretty much at the end of the older runways - not really the way most new or updated airports are built !!
I mean just imagine if this flight was taking off in the other direction, or going east-west from one of the older runways - we would be talking not only Spanair but also crash into terminals and/or parked aircraft
ADDED DETAIL:
crash took place on 36L, but same runway other way round (18R) would mean crashing into parked aircraft (if in straight line), hangars, and even pax terminals if veered of straight line
same potential issue if taking off from 33L or 15L
note: this is because of the rather peculiar way of constructing the new terminal/satellite pretty much at the end of the older runways - not really the way most new or updated airports are built !!
Last edited by jotape; 20th Aug 2008 at 17:04. Reason: more information
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kwick.
If you're going to quote me please do so properly. I did not write that casualty figures were irrelevant. Kindly correct your post or acknowledge its inaccuracy.
As I just explained to someone who (politely) enquired via PM the moderators have deleted dozens of posts from people simply logging in to post some numbers they got from the media (similar numbers already having been posted several times before). The very same media that dozens of others have logged in to berate. Anyone else see the irony here?
On some pages these superfluous posts would have outnumbered the pertinent ones had they been left unmoderated. Most members here would prefer not to have to wade through such verbiage.
Duck
If you're going to quote me please do so properly. I did not write that casualty figures were irrelevant. Kindly correct your post or acknowledge its inaccuracy.
As I just explained to someone who (politely) enquired via PM the moderators have deleted dozens of posts from people simply logging in to post some numbers they got from the media (similar numbers already having been posted several times before). The very same media that dozens of others have logged in to berate. Anyone else see the irony here?
On some pages these superfluous posts would have outnumbered the pertinent ones had they been left unmoderated. Most members here would prefer not to have to wade through such verbiage.
Duck