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practice pan

Old 20th Aug 2008, 09:09
  #41 (permalink)  
Yuri Gagarin
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21 on board at FL160 can only be a helicopter with a full load of passengers operating on the North Sea for the offshore industry (19 PAX + 2 CREW).

IMHO "Practice PAN" calls are useful to both crews and ATC and we are being often asked to help controllers during their training, hence the calls.
 
Old 20th Aug 2008, 12:52
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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"...can only be a helicopter.."

How about a Jetstream inbound to Aberdeen?

Stand by for more possibilities.
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Old 20th Aug 2008, 13:00
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Yuri, you're letting your imagination run away, I fear! What sort of helo (sans colostomy bag) do you imagine flies at FL160, with or without pax???

No, not a helo.
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Old 20th Aug 2008, 19:47
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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helibus my arse.


It will be a J41 outa Newcastle or somewhere further south is there is a pants headwind.

It really is relatively common they usually do it after you transfer to scottish.

It really is a none event transiting up the east coast or for that matter coming down from Shetland.

Cracking service, long may it continue and until the rest of the prats don't sort out the rest of the 95% of none allowed traffic. I for one will be doing pratices pans just to annoy the guard police.
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Old 20th Aug 2008, 20:24
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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It's about time to file an ASR every time you miss a call on VHF1 because of some #@$ who just wants to exercise his right to clutter 121.5
And the worst thing is: over the years it just seems to increase. It should be stopped.
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Old 20th Aug 2008, 21:00
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an idea

Two crew transport, listening on 121.5 misses a call on comm1 because of someone "nattering" on 121.5 - as PNF is dealing with comms, why not have PF listen on comm 1 and 121.5, and PNF just listen on comm1?

Apart from that, most calls on 121.5 (apart from the afore mentioned burps, farts etc) seem to be ATC trying to find aircraft which are not answering on the correct ATC frequency. So what are these guys doing - they change frequency and get no answer so they just keep on trucking without going back to the previous sector to check - or it goes quite (which rarely happens except late at night) - and after ten minutes they think "this is nice and quiet happy days" rather than "gone a bit quiet I'll just check the squelch/volume control/ASP/ ATC are still there?". Coming back from ALC recently I heard Spanish air defence, Bordeaux and Brest all trying to find missing airliners on 121.5. - Surely 121.5 is designated as a distress frequency. perhaps we actually need a designated calling frequency for ATC, it shouldn't be neccessary to listen on the distress frequency over continental Europe to avoid being intercepted when we can't get in touch with ATC.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 00:02
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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golfy please do so we can put this ****e to bed.

But you must also include reports on the none practise pans as well.Which is of course the 95% of the other traffic on 121.5.

Other than that your report will be treated in the moaning **** allocation.

ie why didn't he moan about the rounders scores from the yank at 10w . The spanish geezer talking asbout something. The frog having an issue with his roster. And the speed bird wanting to know his gate at LHR but one of the Gatwick crew thinking they are funny saying go ahead.

Practise pans are nothing in the grand scope of things.

Btw thats 3 days now without hearing single practise pan.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 06:47
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Fact: the UK has an extremely good DF system in place that can be very handy to a lost pilot. Unfortunately, it uses 121.5 and 121.5 only.
The UK DF (autotriangulation) system is available on 243.0 and the PETF as well.

Practice Pans can be practiced at home, in the car to the aerodrome, or wherever. If it is practice, the only value is in getting the text correct and in the right order. Standard R/T. No need to involve ATC surely?
ATC needs practice too and the kit needs testing/checking every now and again.

Final thought. Any place for Practice Maydays?
The PP covers all practice emergencies including those which for real would be maydays.

As for the aircraft at FL160, you may know who this particular one was, but it could be anyone - we are asked to do them just as often whilst transitting - can be multi crew or single seat, it matters not. Usually they just get the system going, ie position, nearest airfield, etc but don't actually fly the diversion - they are mainly for ground training. We do a few with students, but on UHF, and take the drill to the touchdown stage at a suitable airfield, if that is the appropriate action.

I don't know the RT setup of all of your aircraft, but if any extraneous chatter on either 'guard' freq is getting in the way, it should be easy to de-select listening to guard for a while. The trick is obviously remembering to re-select.
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 08:11
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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An other analogy the Brits won't like.

Every day there are accidents on the road because people drive way to fast.
But one off-duty UK police officer who was caught (severely) speeding in the M25 successfuly used the excuse that he had to practice his police pursuit skills...

He's like the practice pan lovers: everyone else is doing it, so shut up.

Only in the UK!
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 08:40
  #50 (permalink)  
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PENKO

I can see that logic is not a strong point.

A police officer was charged with a criminal offence (speeding) and was found not guilty.

A practice pan is not a criminal offence.

Can you recognise that there is a difference between the two?

Maybe you should engaga brain before posting
 
Old 21st Aug 2008, 08:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I told you you wouldn't like it!

A policeman isn't a pilot either. A car isn't a plane and the M25 you will not find in Jepp. But engage your noodle sir,

The analogy stands!
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 18:07
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Currency

London Centre D&D controllers each have to handle 3 practice pans or actual emergencies every month to maintain currency iaw their orders. Take away practice calls and all D&D controllers would very quickly become out of currency and unable to fulfil their function.

However, perhaps instead of handling emergencies, how about if they were able to retain currency just by going out on guard and trying to contact CAT pilots on 121.5 who were not listening out on their control frequency on which they are under a radar contol service

Whaddya think? The guys certainly would have no problems maintaining currency as they spend far more time doing that on 121.5 than talking to pilots conducting practice pans!!!!

DD
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 18:28
  #53 (permalink)  
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I told you you wouldn't like it!
No, you said Brits wouldn't like it.

Look at my location.

Your analogy is rubbish, because it is based on a false premise.
 
Old 21st Aug 2008, 18:42
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Touche on your nationality.

You should have cought me on the really glaring mistake in my analogy, not the fact that practie pans are legal. Think deep enough and you'll see what I mean anyway.

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Old 21st Aug 2008, 22:08
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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The UK DF (autotriangulation) system is available on 243.0 and the PETF as well.
Fer Gawd's sake.... OK, so I'll add "...on VHF" to my little rant. Civil airliners don't carry UHF - or not the ones I, and the vast majority of readers here, fly.

If it's so damn important that UK controllers do three PP's a month, a discrete frequency should be made available. Even military ELBs have a secondary freq so that a rescuer and rescuee can move off GUARD in the latter stages of a rescue if they choose to. (Iknow, I know, not just for that.)
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Old 21st Aug 2008, 22:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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What you hear is not what you get

Many years ago, before I even started my ATLP course, I was listening to Bournemouth ATC during my factory lunch break. I was totally aghast to hear a BAC111 giving a Mayday, with an engine fire almost overhead. I rushed out to watch but there was no sign of him. Only a dear old Dove flying serenely along and obeying all the instructions to the 111. Finally the penny dropped. No ATC simulators then, just the Hurn Dove going off,hiding behind the cliffs, then popping up and pretending to be all sorts of A/c with all sorts of problems, so trainee controllers could learn their job.


Just to get back on track, I never minded the practise Pans. If just one PPL learnt how to get help, and not be afraid of losing face, before he hit the cumulo-granite then they were all well worth while.
(And to all the controllers who trained at Hurn, Thanks chaps, you’re the best!)
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Old 22nd Aug 2008, 06:34
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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MTOW
I think everyone agrees it would be better for all if there were a second practice freq available... at present there isnt.

You while you are flying you spend only a certain percentage of your time within earshot of the UK, even if that percentage is 95% it is only a few hours at a time.
I am telling you as a person that has spent many many 8 hours shifts in the London D&D centre that the massive majority of transmissions heard in London Centre on 121.5 are made by CAT pilots mistakenly being on guard. The second highest usage would be by D&D calling CAT to go to the freq that they should already be listening out on but patently arent.
I dont have the stats to hand but take it from someone who used to monitor 121.5 continuously whilst on duty not just when i was airbourne within UK radio coverage, that CAT could reduce the amount of noise on 121.5 massively by sorting their own house out.

I fly as a hobby and I am able to operate a radio with no dramas even managing to transmit on the correct freq and listen out on it at all times. Surely if a PPL can manage that, a commercial pilot can.... cant he?

These are the facts PP calls are permitted on 121.5 in the UK, there is no other freq available to the D&D controllers or the pilots who wish to conduct those PP calls, CAT contibute by far the most amout of transmissions on 121.5
What do you think is the simpleist fix? I would go for think before Tx on wrong box & hey presto 121.5 is a helluva lot quieter than present worldwide.
DD
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Old 22nd Aug 2008, 08:35
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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MTOW,

your tobacco analogy is a good one and actually has merit.

If Practice Pans did not currently take place on 121.5 but someone came up with the idea, then chances are it would be binned as a bad idea, because the impact would be thought to be to high.

However that's not the case - PP's do take place and the impact is extremely low compared to the total lack of professionalism and in other cases finger trouble (which happens from time to time).

I'm sorry but I refer to my post way above about cockpit workloads... if a professional pilot (or more likely pilots plural) in a modern day airliner is incapable of tuning out the wheat from the chaff, then they need to get some (lots) more practice/training in.
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Old 22nd Aug 2008, 10:00
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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95% of the problem would be solved if every gash transmission on Guard was logged and (if identifiable) reported to the operator. If we can triangulate a C150 asking for help we can do the same to a B737 that asks his oppo the footie score, or the guy who repeatedly blows farts into his mike.

We'd soon stop, or dramatically reduce the inadvertent lengthy calls to Ops, and be able to prosecute the imbecile who says "Go ahead" when Numptie calls ops on Guard.

121.5 is becoming far far too busy with gash transmissions in Europe, it is about time the Authorities stepped in and imposed a Bit of Authority.

And if you do feel moved to tell Numptie that he is on the wrong freq, for God's sake DO NOT SAY "Guard". It sounds far too like "Go ahead".
Say "121,5".

Grr!
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Old 22nd Aug 2008, 11:59
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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What about practice emergency airports for practice engine failures, surely this must be a higher priority than than practicing a practice Pan / DF steer?
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