REPORT YOUR HEADING TO..........
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REPORT YOUR HEADING TO..........
This is just a plea really.
PLEASE, when asked to "Report heading to..." or, to a slightly lesser extent "Report speed to...", ensure that you DO.
We down below are basing our separations, formulating plans of action etc., etc., on what an aircraft has been asked to do.
Thanks for listening
PLEASE, when asked to "Report heading to..." or, to a slightly lesser extent "Report speed to...", ensure that you DO.
We down below are basing our separations, formulating plans of action etc., etc., on what an aircraft has been asked to do.
Thanks for listening
Guest
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Fedup,
I understand your plea. And so from now on I will never make another mistake or omission while flying the A/C in the same way that you very fine controllers (Honestly I do think you are generally excellent) will never make another mistake or omission.
However back to the real world again and no matter how hard I try I just cannot get it 100% right 100% of the time. We do not set out with the intention of making errors, as I'm sure you appreciate.
Regards
Exeng
I understand your plea. And so from now on I will never make another mistake or omission while flying the A/C in the same way that you very fine controllers (Honestly I do think you are generally excellent) will never make another mistake or omission.
However back to the real world again and no matter how hard I try I just cannot get it 100% right 100% of the time. We do not set out with the intention of making errors, as I'm sure you appreciate.
Regards
Exeng
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Dear exeng
What you have replied to me, I find a trifle worrying. The information I refer to is, perhaps, the most important information that you will ever be asked to pass on. It seems fairly simple to me ?
Not really sure that I like the snipe at ATC anyway. Got anything to say, then air it - get it off your chest.
But please, no snyde coments eh ?
What you have replied to me, I find a trifle worrying. The information I refer to is, perhaps, the most important information that you will ever be asked to pass on. It seems fairly simple to me ?
Not really sure that I like the snipe at ATC anyway. Got anything to say, then air it - get it off your chest.
But please, no snyde coments eh ?
Guest
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Fedup,
To be honest it's your attitude that is worrying, your PPruNe handle perhaps says more than your message. Exengs comments were not a swipe at ATC anymore than your original post was a swipe at pilots. I think maybe it is you who has something to get off your chest.
To be honest it's your attitude that is worrying, your PPruNe handle perhaps says more than your message. Exengs comments were not a swipe at ATC anymore than your original post was a swipe at pilots. I think maybe it is you who has something to get off your chest.
Guest
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Fedupwithitall,
I have to say you do sound as if you are at that.
"It seems fairly simple to me?" Yes well I'm sure it does. The point I was trying to make, at the risk of repeating myself, is that we all make mistakes and omissions sometimes. To err is human and all that. We pilots do make mistakes and that will not change. We are generally hanging on your every word but there are times, even on modern A/C, that other interuptions cause us to err. Can you not accept that? I hope you can because it is not going to change.
As for your comment, <Not really sure that I like the snipe at ATC anyway.> Well my friend there was no snipe intended but if you wish to interpret it as such then that is your problem. To repeat myself again I said, <in the same way that you very fine controllers (Honestly I do think you are generally excellent) will never make another mistake or omission.> If somebody described my colleagues and I as generally excellent I would be very pleased at the complement.
Anyway, enough said as I'm getting very fed up with it all!
Regards
exeng
I have to say you do sound as if you are at that.
"It seems fairly simple to me?" Yes well I'm sure it does. The point I was trying to make, at the risk of repeating myself, is that we all make mistakes and omissions sometimes. To err is human and all that. We pilots do make mistakes and that will not change. We are generally hanging on your every word but there are times, even on modern A/C, that other interuptions cause us to err. Can you not accept that? I hope you can because it is not going to change.
As for your comment, <Not really sure that I like the snipe at ATC anyway.> Well my friend there was no snipe intended but if you wish to interpret it as such then that is your problem. To repeat myself again I said, <in the same way that you very fine controllers (Honestly I do think you are generally excellent) will never make another mistake or omission.> If somebody described my colleagues and I as generally excellent I would be very pleased at the complement.
Anyway, enough said as I'm getting very fed up with it all!
Regards
exeng
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Dear Mr. Fedupwithitall and all your extremly supporting colleagues,
we, a bunch of well overpaid and not so much hard work doing drivers of all these bloody expensive high-tech-never-to-fail subsonic cruisers, are trying really to cope with your requests.
Yes, if asked to report whatever you demand, we should comply.
Yes, we are sitting most of the time in an airconditioned environment watching the sun and gossip about all the poor lads "downstairs" while the coffee and the crew meal is served on a push-buttons request.
Yes, there is absolutely nothing, which destracts our attention despite the little discussions about the time we want to spend after landing...
Reality is slightly different. Also most of us enjoy FSM GNS FMC and however these push to go systems are called. But....a lot of us are still unable to follow any GPS based approach / departure below 10.000 ft, all in a sudden a re-routing occurs because the ATC system accepted two different flight plans for the same Flight number (a second plan was filed to improve slot situation), and last but not least we are all obliged to use the most economic flight procedures available (i.e. absolute minimum fuel, highest possible level, APU use to essential minimas....).
Beside this, imagine please following situation: Nice and sunny day, boarding on time, passengers are in the bus outside the aeroplane, cleaners in the aeroplane not ready yet as the turn-around is simply too short, first pax collapses in bus due to extreme conditions, when passengers board the wardrobes on wheels (never fitting luggage
) is taken off them, and eventually, while closing doors ATC announces a slot....
Beside the fact that you have a load of very upset people on board, you deal with ATC not understanding or questioning your navigation system, re-calculating your fuel situation, double-checking with OPS for any plan B in the drawer, thinking of all the rest your duty will provide today you eventually make it in the air.
On some airports you have to change 3 times frequency during the first 10.000 ft, this while you are busy re-configuring your aeroplane several times to follow the manufacturers ideas, adhearing to some of the most interesting and sometimes challenging departure procedures -speed restrictions-noise restrictions-turn restrictions-climb restrictions....beside this you do some checklist work, answer questions of the cabin crew, try to avoid weather and make it as comfortable as possible for all in the plane.
Now there is one controller who asked for something to report...my sincere apologise if I missed that one, but at that moment I actually tried to sip on my coffee....
Please, we understand your job and the importance of these orders. May I kindly ask for some understanding in return?
And isn't it one out of a thousand who forgot this order and did not comply?
Guess I can talk for most of my colleagues who all try to be as professional as possible, if it happens, it is not intentionally.
we, a bunch of well overpaid and not so much hard work doing drivers of all these bloody expensive high-tech-never-to-fail subsonic cruisers, are trying really to cope with your requests.
Yes, if asked to report whatever you demand, we should comply.
Yes, we are sitting most of the time in an airconditioned environment watching the sun and gossip about all the poor lads "downstairs" while the coffee and the crew meal is served on a push-buttons request.
Yes, there is absolutely nothing, which destracts our attention despite the little discussions about the time we want to spend after landing...
Reality is slightly different. Also most of us enjoy FSM GNS FMC and however these push to go systems are called. But....a lot of us are still unable to follow any GPS based approach / departure below 10.000 ft, all in a sudden a re-routing occurs because the ATC system accepted two different flight plans for the same Flight number (a second plan was filed to improve slot situation), and last but not least we are all obliged to use the most economic flight procedures available (i.e. absolute minimum fuel, highest possible level, APU use to essential minimas....).
Beside this, imagine please following situation: Nice and sunny day, boarding on time, passengers are in the bus outside the aeroplane, cleaners in the aeroplane not ready yet as the turn-around is simply too short, first pax collapses in bus due to extreme conditions, when passengers board the wardrobes on wheels (never fitting luggage
) is taken off them, and eventually, while closing doors ATC announces a slot....Beside the fact that you have a load of very upset people on board, you deal with ATC not understanding or questioning your navigation system, re-calculating your fuel situation, double-checking with OPS for any plan B in the drawer, thinking of all the rest your duty will provide today you eventually make it in the air.
On some airports you have to change 3 times frequency during the first 10.000 ft, this while you are busy re-configuring your aeroplane several times to follow the manufacturers ideas, adhearing to some of the most interesting and sometimes challenging departure procedures -speed restrictions-noise restrictions-turn restrictions-climb restrictions....beside this you do some checklist work, answer questions of the cabin crew, try to avoid weather and make it as comfortable as possible for all in the plane.
Now there is one controller who asked for something to report...my sincere apologise if I missed that one, but at that moment I actually tried to sip on my coffee....
Please, we understand your job and the importance of these orders. May I kindly ask for some understanding in return?
And isn't it one out of a thousand who forgot this order and did not comply?
Guess I can talk for most of my colleagues who all try to be as professional as possible, if it happens, it is not intentionally.
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Sorry guys......must have been a bad day at the office !
And Jonty......you are quite right to complain. It should only be one, max two, executive instructions at any one time.
And yes.......Fedupwithitall is an apt description I'm afraid. Not aimed at the actual job, but at the piss-poor management of it.
But then again, aren't we all ?
And Jonty......you are quite right to complain. It should only be one, max two, executive instructions at any one time.
And yes.......Fedupwithitall is an apt description I'm afraid. Not aimed at the actual job, but at the piss-poor management of it.
But then again, aren't we all ?
Guest
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310, you're actually SIPPING COFFEE below 10,000'! Superhuman or what? Seriously guys, get real. Fedup was making a very simple point, that a lot of us forget to pass on headings when checking in on a new frequency. Let's not forget that we're all supposed to be on the same side here.
Guest
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...."pass your heading and speed to London on..."
Have not noticed this poor intra-sector communication in the USA or for that matter, the rest of Europe. Is this something UNIQUE to London? Maybe better ATC equipment is necessary. Maybe the ATC guys can explain?
Have not noticed this poor intra-sector communication in the USA or for that matter, the rest of Europe. Is this something UNIQUE to London? Maybe better ATC equipment is necessary. Maybe the ATC guys can explain?
Guest
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Fedupwithitall,
As you said "And yes.......Fedupwithitall is an apt description I'm afraid. Not aimed at the actual job, but at the piss-poor management of it."
Well you and me both mate, at times it is enough to give you the creeps isn't it. I can't claim to understand all the problems you have down there but I've been given a clue by friends of mine. Our problems may be different in some ways but I'll give you a penny to a pound that the root cause of both is the short-termist attitude of penny pinching management. (Apologies to all for hopping on my soapbox yet again!!)
And Fedup, a person who apologises on this forum is very rare. I have done it but not as often as I should if I'm honest. You have my respect. I welcome the exchange of views and hope that in the future we might better understand each others problems.
Best regards
Exeng
As you said "And yes.......Fedupwithitall is an apt description I'm afraid. Not aimed at the actual job, but at the piss-poor management of it."
Well you and me both mate, at times it is enough to give you the creeps isn't it. I can't claim to understand all the problems you have down there but I've been given a clue by friends of mine. Our problems may be different in some ways but I'll give you a penny to a pound that the root cause of both is the short-termist attitude of penny pinching management. (Apologies to all for hopping on my soapbox yet again!!)
And Fedup, a person who apologises on this forum is very rare. I have done it but not as often as I should if I'm honest. You have my respect. I welcome the exchange of views and hope that in the future we might better understand each others problems.
Best regards
Exeng
Guest
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Hey Fedup,
Let's not forget that you, I, and loads of other people play one of the biggest team games known to mankind; and yet most of us have never met each other!
Not a lot of footballers know that!
Send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll organise a beer or two. (Channel 4 not invited)
Regards
Exeng
Let's not forget that you, I, and loads of other people play one of the biggest team games known to mankind; and yet most of us have never met each other!
Not a lot of footballers know that!
Send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll organise a beer or two. (Channel 4 not invited)
Regards
Exeng
Guest
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411A, just for info, we at Maastricht often ask aircraft to report heading and/or mach number to the next sector. And I've heard it when flying over France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries to name but a few. It's certainly not exclusive to LATCC. IT's actually quite a common ATC procedure. Furthermore, we do inform the next sector/unit if you're locked onto a heading or given a speed restriction. The idea of you stating the fact on initial contact with the next sector is to effectively confirm that you are adhering to these instructions.
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Inconvenient as it may be, the reporting of heading or speed is in fact the only guarantee the next controller has of your separation against other traffic. That, most of the time, is why the restriction is given. In order to reduce time spent coordinating, it says in the MATS for LATCC (and most units I believe) that the next controller must be informed if the aircraft is on a heading, either by telephone or by asking the pilot to report the fact. So by not doing so you increase R/T and your own loading because we have to check.
Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that you are not always sitting up there with your feet on the coaming, but these are important instructions which guarantee your separation so they should have your attention. They are not done for the fun of it.
Also agree with the multiple instruction transmission problem, but would point out that most controllers will/should not give level instructions at the same time as a frequency change.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate that you are not always sitting up there with your feet on the coaming, but these are important instructions which guarantee your separation so they should have your attention. They are not done for the fun of it.
Also agree with the multiple instruction transmission problem, but would point out that most controllers will/should not give level instructions at the same time as a frequency change.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"