Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EZY Captain gets the boot

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EZY Captain gets the boot

Old 17th Jul 2008, 19:50
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BFS
Posts: 1,180
There is always the option to go-around at 500' - if not, then one is already at a point where a MAYDAY call should be considered.
I may be reading your post out of context Gary, But am I correct in construing from this that if an EZY a/c does not meet the stability criteria, and perhaps this has somehow gone unnoticed until say 400' you are advocating the declaration of an emergency?
silverknapper is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 20:03
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 542
Is it airmanship to follow SOP's someone asked?Not in itself no,although many of the principles are coincident.
You must have all flown with pilots who say and do things on the flight deck in a very dogmatic way.Passing x thousand feet,they do z and say y,and this is so engrained in them that they'll even sub-consciously disregard a call from ATC just so that they can repeat this little routine at this set time.When the descent starts,they put the signs on precisely at that moment.They do things in a very set regimented manner.They always brief at the same time and they say the exact same things in the exact same order.Or the guy/gal who sits there twiddling their thumbs waiting for transition altitude before performing the after takeoff checks.The procedure says when altimeters are set,perform the checklist and by God thats what they're going to do.Or the guy who accepts immediate takeoff clearance behind a 757 just because the Company SOP screwed up and classified at as medium.Or the pilot who taxis at 29 knots when asked to expedite a backtrack for landing traffic.The manual says max taxi speed is 30 knots so thats what he does.This is the "Pavlov-dog" type pilot;they need a manual for everything,even what time of day to take a sh*t.I recognize many of this type right here on this forum,they're not easy to miss.
Rananim is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 20:25
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: kuwait
Posts: 17
Wether this guy deserved to go or not, I don't know. One thing is certain is that our union, BALPA, should be asking a lot of questions. We all know that two trainers decided to ignore the go-around call from their f/o, are they still employed or are they still training? Take a guess. Our colleagues in Dortmund are concerned about their jobs, yet Easy are sellng sectors to those who have the money. We all are expecting no offer in October, but the least we can do is protect the professionalism and integrity that Easy, after a long struggle, became synonymous with. Lets not let the airline slip back to the MK days.
kuwaitlocal is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 20:29
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre
Posts: 311
In the US it is illegal for a company to use recorded data or CVRs for disciplinary action. I thought that was world-wide. Evidentally not.
layinlow is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 21:06
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,269
silverknapper - that isn't what I meant; if you are unstable at 500' and don't notice (why? how?) until 400', GO-AROUND.

If you have reason to continue and land knowingly unstable beow 500', then there'd better be a very good reason indeed - i.e. where to go-around would result in compromising the safety of the aircraft (e.g. severe weather/fuel exhaustion/imminent security breach of flight deck etc etc).

Ultimately, as with any command decision, you'd have to be prepared to stand up in front of the BOI/Management and justify your action. "I thought it'd be alright" is not adequate...!

We all know that two trainers decided to ignore the go-around call from their f/o, are they still employed or are they still training? Take a guess.
So they should be sacked? Or should context/history/outcome of the de-brief be taken into account and the chaps who erred allowed to continue flying, wiser for their experience? Take a guess. How do we know that hadn't already happened once or more times in the case of the pilot in question?

No actual facts concerning this incident have appeared on here, just people assuming either innocence or guilt, and nerds talking about descent speeds. Until we know the background, no conclusions can be drawn. I have taken exception at the (unfounded) criticism of FDR safety monitoring systems.

I know that the next negligent decision I take could result in losing my job or worse - and I accept that responsibility along with my salary.
Gary Lager is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 21:13
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 59
Posts: 1,034
If you have reason to continue and land knowingly unstable beow 500', then there'd better be a very good reason indeed - i.e. where to go-around would result in compromising the safety of the aircraft (e.g. severe weather/fuel exhaustion/imminent security breach of flight deck etc etc).
Be careful here Gary, this exact situation led to this chaps first encounter with Management! (the severe weather bit, or at least that was his defence)!
kick the tires is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 21:15
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,198
In the US it is illegal for a company to use recorded data or CVRs for disciplinary action.
I like your thinking but that data has been available and used at most recent incident hearings in my experience.

Once the company or feds are aware of a reportable incident, recorded data is fair game in the U.S. as far as I know. There are limits on dissemination but it can and has been used to nail a crew that had a bad day from what I've seen. Remember the 'good old days' when we erased the CVR after something unusual? That action will now get you another month off if they catch you. Or so I'm told.

Fishing expeditions though the data for other than 'safety' purposes are not (yet) allowed but I see them coming.

QAR data used in ASAP programs is deidentified but there is a big gotcha in the feds' ASAP handbook:

2) Violations that are not inadvertent or that involve an intentional disregard for safety are specifically excluded from the program and any enforcement-related incentive will not apply to these violations.
We have been put on informal notice by the feds that unstabilized approaches may be considered 'an intentional disregard for safety' and filing an ASAP report may not give you the get out of jail card.
Airbubba is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2008, 22:09
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: DXB & FL 410
Posts: 922
Which base was this guy from? Ive not heard anything about this down at LGW...
Craggenmore is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2008, 18:06
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
737Jock, you know as well as I do that there is also a list of mandatory events which MUST be reported as an ASR.
These include, but are not limited to, such events as Engine fire or failure, systems failures, Go-around below 500', bird strikes, lightening strikes, any damage occurring during flight, injury to crew or passengers and so on. Therefore, neglecting to file an ASR when you land and relying on the fact that the initial discussion will be between yourself and the analyst will only be seen as you trying to avoid the consequences.
Hence you will certainly be invited for tea and biscuits by your Mngmnt.
My advice to all Captains is that if you have encountered any of the events which need reporting, do so as soon as you land. Not when you get back to base, but as soon as you land. If you're in Berlin, Budapest, Bombay or Birmingham, no matter where, do it straight away.
Both EZY and RYR have an almost 100% recovery rate of data from FLIDRAS so you will not escape detection by simply ignoring it.
Responsibility is something you earn with your fourth stripe. If you need to use it, do so in a responsible manner, not by trying to duck the issue.
rubik101 is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2008, 18:41
  #150 (permalink)  
st nicholas
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Not knowing the chap in question and not privy to the exact reason for his dismissal but employed by same company, I am sure there was a sound reason for the sacking.

I am also sure that BALPA would only help you if there was a question mark over the cause or the method of the disciplinary process .

If there was no doubt to the cause and the process was followed correctly BALPA are not interested.

I have always been treated fairly and I err as often as most. If you are honest open , have a bit of integrity and stay within the bounds of SOP,s you will be OK
 
Old 18th Jul 2008, 19:00
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 481
Just to clarify one thing...

If during flight, there has not been an event which has led to an investigation by a state investigator (AIB), then under law (derived from ICAO annexes), there is no protection of the recorded data. The company may, then, listen to any CVR and examine any FDR data from a flight which has not involved a reportable occurrence or otherwise caught the formal investigative interest of the state investigators.

In some companies, agreements (often involving unions) restrict this.
frontlefthamster is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 10:42
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Thailand
Posts: 942
And to clarify another; the data we are talking about is from the flight data monitoring system. In the most modern systems, this data is transmitted by mobile phone to the collection centre, generally a company not directly connected to the airline but an independent body employed by the airline. They then analyse the data and report any exceedances, deviations etc that fall outside the designated parameters to the moderator within the company.
Flight data recording is stored on the hard memory within the 'black box' in the aircraft. This data will is accessed directly after each flight or when the aircraft transits through a base where engineers have the equipment to retrieve and transmit the data.
Both EZY and RYR have the data transmitted automatically after every landing so walking away after your arrival and hoping the company will not find out about your +30kts at 100' or the two dots low at 800' is a false expectation.
If a particular pilot has more than his fare share of Class 1 incidents and a regular smattering of Class 2 then he will surely be invited for further training, interviews, warning letters and ultimately dismissal.
You cannot escape the long arm of FLIDRAS (or whatever your system is called) and nor should you be able to!
rubik101 is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 12:46
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: somehere sandy!
Posts: 267
fromtlefthamster...

Exactly a good reason to sill use CVR erase button after each flight. (assuming no incidents of course!) It amazes me that crew can be so naive to think no one 'may' be interested in the last 2+hours of communication.

Or am I just paranoid?
goeasy is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 14:25
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Trangression Zone
Posts: 2,049
'stabilzed'

Perfectly stabilized at 500---in a jet on a non-precision approach w/o a VDP--no divin' and drivin' to get low because the MAP is half way down the stupid RWY---yes we use the gear
I hope all the procedures contain a glide slope or many folks I know [myself included] would get the sack

I mean a jet should never be allowed to veer too far from certain parameters from TOD---to touchdown---anyway


I'm rereading many post because there's so many interesting topics here [on PPRuNe]as of lately so I may have missed some points as each thread has been getting a frantic skimming---but I do feel bad for the Guy

Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 19th Jul 2008 at 15:39.
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 15:45
  #155 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Which is more unsafe:

1) 500RA at Vref+20 (i.e., unstable) but lands at Vref, or

2) 500RA at Vref+15 (i.e., stable) but lands at Vref+15?

How many times do you see pilots fail to bleed the correction (gusts notwithstanding) off?

More often than they bust the "stable" criteria?

SR71 is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 17:02
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Near the Canadian border
Posts: 6
AltFlaps, I hope you never make a mistake. I can be a very lonely feeling standing at the table by yourself. Unions ARE a necessary evil.
fbh
frozenboxhauler is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 17:53
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ireland
Age: 36
Posts: 31
frozenboxhauler i think your right a point but if the union becmes too strong i think it sometimes undermines the management of an airline and their ability to weild the axe. But your perfectly right, i fly for an airline that has no representation (unuion wise) and i'd always err on the side of caution f##k them. But your only one minor mistake away from a dismissal. in any regard unuion or not were all human and i wish all the best to this aviator im sure he/she could be any of us..
stev is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 18:39
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 481
You should never be 'a mistake' away from dismissal.

The commercial aircraft's flight deck operation is designed to be error-tolerant. You may be 'a deliberate foolhardy act' or 'a disobedience of the rules' away from dismissal, but 'a mistake', never.
frontlefthamster is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 18:53
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ireland
Age: 36
Posts: 31
quite right leftfronthammer forgot we're all infallibal but true to your speak if you follow the letter to the law you shouldn't get yourself into that situation
stev is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2008, 19:51
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,269
SR71:
Which is more unsafe:

1) 500RA at Vref+20 (i.e., unstable) but lands at Vref, or

2) 500RA at Vref+15 (i.e., stable) but lands at Vref+15?
Thing is, you never know whether today is going to be the day that your brakes/reversers/runway drainage/brain fails...so whilst one may be able to lose 20kts in the last 500' (N1 might be a little low for 'safety' though), how far will you push it to see? You have to put a 'gate' in somewhere.

The fact that the 'gates' we use are usually manufacturer-derived from decades of accident statistics aside, as a Captain you'll appreciate how nice it can be sometimes for someone else to have made the decision for you, from the peace and quiet of an office; so you don't have to do so at 500'.

However, I assume you're not arguing against the stabilised approach concept itself but rather the draconian application thereof. Consider, though, if you were a Chief Pilot, what would you do? Think back to some of the Captains you might have flown with earlier in your career(!) and whether you could sleep easy at your desk in the knowledge that their discretion to apply safe judgement was all that was preventing the next runway excursion.

And was that last sentence a statement or a question? Maybe you've been getting a few too many management e-mails recently..

Frontlefthamster - Perhaps the 'mistake' was to fail to pay sufficient attention in the debrief the last time...
Gary Lager is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.