BA038 Crew get BA safety Medal

[yamaha]

now these guys deserve their medal.

Well done and thanks!

[M.Mouse]

Just out of interest; does the auto pilot disconnect anyway 'automatically' at 200' or thereabouts if it senses idle power etc. or would it have been the crews lives flashing past and the F/O who manually disconnected it?

The autopilot does not automatically disconnect at any height and in fact after landing, when autolanding, will remain engaged until the aircraft stops on the runway unless manually disconnected by the pilot.

BA38's autopilot was engaged in APP(roach) mode and was flying the ILS. With insufficient power the speed was inevitably decaying.

Reasons for an autopilot disconnect can be but are not limited to an input made via the control column by either pilot OR a pilot pushing any disengage switch OR, as mentioned above, perhaps the autopilot system reaching its trim limits.

For the autopilot to disconnect itself after a cursory glance I have not readily been able to find any reference in my manuals regarding what parameters would have to be exceeded for that to happen but I presume the autopilot system would have such parameters.

Edited for technical accuracy following BOAC's comments.

[Dream Buster]

M. Mouse,

Thanks, all as I suspected. I guess we'll just have to wait for the AAIB report to find out what did happen. Well done to the crew; they obviously did the right thing anyway.

DB

[misd-agin]

I wouldn't be surprised if AOA limit, perhaps via stickshaker or stick pusher, disconnects A/P.

Guess we'll have to see what the final AAIB report says.

[Bearcat]

atakacs Let's see...

As for the flight crew there wasn't much they could do except trying their best to convert height into distance. Leaving the AP on and reducing flap was their answer - I still have to see any hard evidence that this was the best course of action. It was possibly brilliant airmanship but so far we simply don't know.

The cabin crew managed an orderly evacuation in somewhat difficult but certainly not exceptional circumstances.

Again hat off for a job well done. Medal of merit ? At best premature, at worst a shameless PR coup

totally concur with the above.......say's it all.

[SIDSTAR]

Another well-trained crew doing a professional job when things went wrong. All pax evacuated without much injury = excellent work by the cabin crew (+ a little luck - no fire).

Enough to give a medal for? Perhaps, or perhaps it's the BA PR machine kicking in - maybe to deflect from something else coming?

In any case, regardless of the causes of the accident (not yet know to us) a professional crew did a good professional job. Well done ladies and gents!

[sispanys ria]

Nice attempt at stirring the pot there sispanys but really all you've shown is your lack of understanding of multi-crew and aircraft operations. One can have control with the autopilot connected, it doesn't necessarily mean hand flying.

I certainly have lacks of understanding regarding pilots heroic actions with 175 ft of control at high fpm...Some will see airmanship in leaving the AP on, but I hardly imagine a pilot loosing both engines just watching at his AP killing the airspeed. Sorry if my questions are disturbing some of you (I wonder why) but I would like to understand these legitimate questions. Until the report is released, it's hard to affirm anything against or supporting the crew actions (except the cabin crews who obviously did a great job).

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by M.Mouse

OR a pilot manually disconnected it.

- I presume we can take the AAIB words "The autopilot disconnected at approximately 175 ft," to be carefully chosen? (SB 1/2008)

[jetopa]

Medal of Honour

Shouldn't the (cabin- !) crew of the AF A340 which overran and caught fire in Toronto get some sort of recognition for their 'timely' evacuation of the airplane? And what about the A320-crew of LH who performed this stunt in Hamburg some weeks ago? Some people were seriously proposing this, but...

I certainly do hope that BA is not misusing this for PR.

From a non-777 point of view, it is reassuring that they were sharp when they needed to be - even after a long flight from Beijing.

[Me Myself]

Am I missing something ?? A couple of months ago Cpt Burkill is ranting against BA in the newspapers saying he wants to leave, is house hunting in Dubaï, has written to Richard Branson to get a job, is going to get one with Emirates..........................and now he is getting a medal ??
What made him a happy bunny all of a sudden ??
I must have overslept.

[Rainboe]

You didn't oversleep, you gullibly believed yet another Brit made-up red top newspaper story- they were looking for mud to fling in the works, and made some up and embellished what little they had.

This unfortunate incident has been the subject of more made-up rumours than some serious fatal accidents!

[M.Mouse]

- I presume we can take the AAIB words "The autopilot disconnected at approximately 175 ft," to be carefully chosen? (SB 1/2008)

You are of course correct and I have edited my post above accordingly. On both this and the other BA38 thread I only contribute in an attempt to quash some of the technical inaccuracies and wilder speculation so beloved of contributors.

Am I missing something ?? A couple of months ago Cpt Burkill is ranting against BA in the newspapers saying he wants to leave, is house hunting in Dubaï, has written to Richard Branson to get a job, is going to get one with Emirates..........................and now he is getting a medal ??
What made him a happy bunny all of a sudden ??
I must have overslept.

It has been pointed out that a great deal of tosh has been published by the press regarding Captain Burkhill. Under BA's own rules employees are not permitted to speak directly with the press without permission. So the question might be asked who did and why in this case.

Nobody seems to have mentioned, from a pilot point of view, how the event would have affected us psychologically in obvious and not so obvious ways. Anybody who has ever been in a serious car crash might perhaps have an idea. After a car crash an individual doesn't generally have the press hounding them and their family nor their every action scrutinised, criticised or commented upon but many hundreds of people, with time on their hands and little understanding or knowledge, on an international aviation forum either!

I personally wish people would wait for the final report and leave the crew in peace for the moment. The apt American expression 'armchair quarterbacking' sums up many comments accurately.

[Juan Tugoh]

Jetopa.

It's entirely possible the crews in the situations you mentioned deserve some recognition. However, this is an occasion where "it does what it says on the tin". The crew of BA38 were awarded the BA Safety Medal by BA. If AF or LH wish to honour their crews that is their perogative.

[Rainboe]

Do we know that they didn't? It's up to them. But I see a crew behaving very professionally and competently on a completely surprising incident with no warning whatsoever that with a 140 passengers, they ended up in an aeroplane unaccountably with no power, and by whatever means managed to effect a not excessively hard arrival such that all carbon based life units managed to evacuate without serious injury, although the aeroplane won't fly again! I feel for their realisation that they had a serious problem. Anyone who criticises an award has no appreciation of the responsibilities of the job, so please, can we stop back-biting and questionning this? It's this awful post-incident Pprune Courts Martial again where actions are analysed and questioned on the barest information, except in this matter, it is not the incident itself, but an award arising from the incident! Purrlease....this is pathetic!

[lomapaseo]

My 2 cents.

I simply separate myself from the technical aspects and view it as the typically confused public.

The award provides closure to Nigel public in that BA is not the problem as their pilots can handle even the most difficult of situations.

So maybe its PR, but that is also part of our industry's communication with the paying customer just as journalists are.

[BOAC]

unaccountably with no power

- pedant's hat on, not 'no' but 'less than approach'? That error has been made before.

[sispanys ria]

It's entirely possible the crews in the situations you mentioned deserve some recognition. However, this is an occasion where "it does what it says on the tin". The crew of BA38 were awarded the BA Safety Medal by BA. If AF or LH wish to honour their crews that is their perogative.

Amen

Until a report is released, how can anybody judge the crew's actions (heroics or not) ? So why speculating in one direction or another ? There is not even a release of CVR showing how and when the crew realized the failure and if it was intentional to let the AP fly the ILS without enough power. According to the current report, the only flying crew's action that we know is that after AP disconnection at 175 ft they did flare when they saw the rising ground (which should be at least a reflex). So forgive me but I'd rather wait the report before commenting the flying crew's actions since we don't know anything serious about it.
Now, if BA, LH or AF wants to reward their crews, it's their choices but without official report it doesn't have any value to me (appart PR...)

Sorry if some people still feel offended by my logic.

[jetopa]

'It's entirely possible the crews in the situations you mentioned deserve some recognition. However, this is an occasion where "it does what it says on the tin". The crew of BA38 were awarded the BA Safety Medal by BA. If AF or LH wish to honour their crews that is their perogative.'

@ Jean Tugoh: You're right. I wasn't trying to downplay the role the BA-crew most probably have played.

But it is noteworthy that the girls and guys back in the cabin sometimes are doing a commendable job and do save the day. I remember another expeditious evacuation after a landing overrun in Warsaw in the beginning of the 90's.

The recent LH incident in HAM was maybe a bad example...

[misd-agin]

sispanys ria - "According to the current report, the only flying crew's action that we know is that after AP disconnection at 175 ft they did flare when they saw the rising ground (which should be at least a reflex)."

********************************************************

OK, maybe I missed it be where does an official AAIB statement reflect any flare done by the flight crew or even the ability to flare the a/c?

[Me Myself]

The thing is we don't have an AF medal with which we can honour crews. We're actually not into the crew honouring business unless they are dead. The Concorde guys have a nice plaque on a wall somewhere in the building and near the train station at CDG.........for all they care.
We're not into pageantry anyway exept on Bastille day that is. They give the " légion d'honneur " like parking tickets nowadays, even to football players !! How pathetic is that ?? I'd rather have nothing and a clear conscience of a job well done.