BA038 Crew get BA safety Medal
the lunatic fringe
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Can someone tell me exactly what the flight crew did?
Everything else is strictly speculation. But what we do know is the end result. And that was, they all walked away.
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It is meaningless to reward a crew while the investigation is going on and any smart pilot will understand why.
The only benefit is for BA's public relations. The message received by the public is that BA's crews are heroes and that you should go for this airline if you want a safe flight (while there is still absolutely no official conclusions related to the causes of the accident...)
That's a great marketing operation that is not only cleaning up the company's image but also promoting it. Well done (to the PR guys).
The only benefit is for BA's public relations. The message received by the public is that BA's crews are heroes and that you should go for this airline if you want a safe flight (while there is still absolutely no official conclusions related to the causes of the accident...)
That's a great marketing operation that is not only cleaning up the company's image but also promoting it. Well done (to the PR guys).
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Or maybe, given some time has now passed, BA are enough in the know to understand that the pilots acted well and are confident enough in the outcome of the report, which may not yet be released for any number of reasons, to make the award now.
I get the uncomfortable feeling that the anonimity of the web allows the most negative of us to snipe from a safe distance.
I get the uncomfortable feeling that the anonimity of the web allows the most negative of us to snipe from a safe distance.
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Or maybe, given some time has now passed, BA are enough in the know to understand that the pilots acted well and are confident enough in the outcome of the report, which may not yet be released for any number of reasons, to make the award now.
I get the uncomfortable feeling that the anonimity of the web allows the most negative of us to snipe from a safe distance.
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The AAIB reports have released very limited information on actions the crew did, or didn't do. What actions did they take that improved, or worsened, the situation? We don't know and the folks that are investigating aren't talking.
We always ask for the complete report prior to making final judgements. Fair enough. Then why give awards before the final report has been released? You can't have it both ways.
I get the uncomfortable feeling that the anonimity of the web allows the most negative of us to snipe from a safe distance.
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The AAIB reports have released very limited information on actions the crew did, or didn't do. What actions did they take that improved, or worsened, the situation? We don't know and the folks that are investigating aren't talking.
We always ask for the complete report prior to making final judgements. Fair enough. Then why give awards before the final report has been released? You can't have it both ways.
Let's see...
As for the flight crew there wasn't much they could do except trying their best to convert height into distance. Leaving the AP on and reducing flap was their answer - I still have to see any hard evidence that this was the best course of action. It was possibly brilliant airmanship but so far we simply don't know.
The cabin crew managed an orderly evacuation in somewhat difficult but certainly not exceptional circumstances.
Again hat off for a job well done. Medal of merit ? At best premature, at worst a shameless PR coup.
As for the flight crew there wasn't much they could do except trying their best to convert height into distance. Leaving the AP on and reducing flap was their answer - I still have to see any hard evidence that this was the best course of action. It was possibly brilliant airmanship but so far we simply don't know.
The cabin crew managed an orderly evacuation in somewhat difficult but certainly not exceptional circumstances.
Again hat off for a job well done. Medal of merit ? At best premature, at worst a shameless PR coup.
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Well done to both the flight and cabin crew.
Makes it sound like BA's a wonderful company to work for, recognising their employees for a job well done. Shame then that it took the company weeks after the event to even send some sort of communication to the individuals involved then really isn't it.
Makes it sound like BA's a wonderful company to work for, recognising their employees for a job well done. Shame then that it took the company weeks after the event to even send some sort of communication to the individuals involved then really isn't it.
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Surely we should conclude from this announcement that BA, in its internal investigations, must now be sufficiently assured that the crew were not part of the cause that an acknowledgement in the form of a Safety Medal for salvaging a critical situation into a survivable incident, rather than a fatal accident, is entirely appropriate.
I say congratulations to them - especially the Flight Crew - on a professional job, well done.
JD
I say congratulations to them - especially the Flight Crew - on a professional job, well done.
JD
Second Law
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misd
You need to read into:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/rumours...ib-report.html
Others better qualified than me can articulate this more accurately but try
(i) flaps 20 to get over the fence
(ii) flared so as to hit the soft stuff
(iii) in less time than it took to type this - circa 50 secs
(iv) ....... with zero training
gets total respect from me.
CW
You need to read into:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/rumours...ib-report.html
Others better qualified than me can articulate this more accurately but try
(i) flaps 20 to get over the fence
(ii) flared so as to hit the soft stuff
(iii) in less time than it took to type this - circa 50 secs
(iv) ....... with zero training
gets total respect from me.
CW
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Well done, and well deserved. And having been the subject of some vicious rumours in Cranebank and un-named individuals here, how nice that there is timely tribute to their actions throughout.
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They made the most of their airmanship skills to make the best of a situation we are not trained for. In 23,000 hours I have never had any guidance as to a procedure if power is being lost on all engines at 700 feet on approach in a large aircraft. They did a splendid job of making it as far as they could to the runway and clearing the fence. I am proud of their flying skills and instinctively knowing how to make the best out of an impossible situation.
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Chris Weston -
Funny that you mention that I should read the AAIB report. I have, and reread it to see if anything new had been released. No new news.
Here's the facts as released by the AAIB. This is the only description of the flight crew's actions during the event. Absent a release of factual data the rest is speculation.
Lots of questions, few answers. I'll await the official report before calling anyone's actions 'heroic'.
Funny that you mention that I should read the AAIB report. I have, and reread it to see if anything new had been released. No new news.
Here's the facts as released by the AAIB. This is the only description of the flight crew's actions during the event. Absent a release of factual data the rest is speculation.
control for the landing at a height of approximately 780 ft,
in accordance with the briefed procedure, and shortly
afterwards the autothrottles commanded an increase in
thrust from both engines. The engines initially responded
but, at a height of about 720 ft, the thrust of the right engine
reduced. Some seven seconds later, the thrust reduced on
the left engine to a similar level. The engines did not shut
down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an
in accordance with the briefed procedure, and shortly
afterwards the autothrottles commanded an increase in
thrust from both engines. The engines initially responded
but, at a height of about 720 ft, the thrust of the right engine
reduced. Some seven seconds later, the thrust reduced on
the left engine to a similar level. The engines did not shut
down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an
engine speed above flight idle, but less than the commanded
thrust. The engines failed to respond to further demands
for increased thrust from the autothrottles, and subsequent
for increased thrust from the autothrottles, and subsequent
movement of the thrust levers fully forward by the flight
crew. The airspeed reduced as the autopilot attempted to
maintain the ILS glide slope and by 200 ft the airspeed
had reduced to about 108 kt. The autopilot disconnected
at approximately 175 ft, the aircraft descended rapidly
and its landing gear made contact with the ground some
1,000 ft short of the paved runway surface just inside the
airfield boundary fence.maintain the ILS glide slope and by 200 ft the airspeed
had reduced to about 108 kt. The autopilot disconnected
at approximately 175 ft, the aircraft descended rapidly
and its landing gear made contact with the ground some
1,000 ft short of the paved runway surface just inside the
Lots of questions, few answers. I'll await the official report before calling anyone's actions 'heroic'.
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If the gents up front had done anything less than
proper on this flight, we would have surely heard about it by now
and the AAIB, Rolls Royce, Boeing and others could all go home
and call it case closed on the mysteries of the lost thrust.
proper on this flight, we would have surely heard about it by now
and the AAIB, Rolls Royce, Boeing and others could all go home
and call it case closed on the mysteries of the lost thrust.
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Perhaps we should all be grateful that it was only the loss of an aircraft, in an extremely built-up area, with no injuries whatever. What is disturbing is that in this mordern day and age with all of electronic onboard devices, no one yet seems to have an answer. I wonder what goes through the mind of every 777 pilot as he approaches 500ft on finals? I think everyone needs an answer.
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The first officer took
control for the landing at a height of approximately 780 ft,
in accordance with the briefed procedure...
in accordance with the briefed procedure...
...The airspeed reduced as the autopilot attempted to
maintain the ILS glide slope and by 200 ft the airspeed
had reduced to about 108 kt. The autopilot disconnected
at approximately 175 ft,
maintain the ILS glide slope and by 200 ft the airspeed
had reduced to about 108 kt. The autopilot disconnected
at approximately 175 ft,
Controversial, moi?
At risk of starting more futile argument it is BA's way of operating called the 'monitored approach' - the landing pilot i.e. the pilot flying the sector hands over control to the other pilot at top of descent. That pilot then flys the approach until such time as the pilot flying the sector resumes control for the landing.
That point can vary and there is no requirement to hand fly until ready or required to by limitations. Therefore, the first officer, John Coward, took control from the captain who had just flown the approach for him but left the autopilot engaged until it disengaged shortly before the aircraft hit the ground.
That point can vary and there is no requirement to hand fly until ready or required to by limitations. Therefore, the first officer, John Coward, took control from the captain who had just flown the approach for him but left the autopilot engaged until it disengaged shortly before the aircraft hit the ground.
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M.Mouse beat me to it.
Nice attempt at stirring the pot there sispanys but really all you've shown is your lack of understanding of multi-crew and aircraft operations. One can have control with the autopilot connected, it doesn't necessarily mean hand flying.
Nice attempt at stirring the pot there sispanys but really all you've shown is your lack of understanding of multi-crew and aircraft operations. One can have control with the autopilot connected, it doesn't necessarily mean hand flying.
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Auto pilot disconnect - auto or manual?
Flintstone and others,
Just out of interest; does the auto pilot disconnect anyway 'automatically' at 200' or thereabouts if it senses idle power etc. or would it have been the crews lives flashing past and the F/O who manually disconnected it?
Perfect result in the circumstances whatever happened and therefore a great job done by the crew who fully deserve the recognition; albeit maybe slightly prematurely?
The answer will hopefully be in the final AAIB report or maybe it is known already, anybody?
DB
Just out of interest; does the auto pilot disconnect anyway 'automatically' at 200' or thereabouts if it senses idle power etc. or would it have been the crews lives flashing past and the F/O who manually disconnected it?
Perfect result in the circumstances whatever happened and therefore a great job done by the crew who fully deserve the recognition; albeit maybe slightly prematurely?
The answer will hopefully be in the final AAIB report or maybe it is known already, anybody?
DB
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DB the AP has no such logic, it remains engaged as long as there is not a failure condition that cause the loss of AP. In this case I believe it had trimmed to stay on the GS and eventualy run out of trim causing it to disconnect
