Air India - pilots fall asleep
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Air India - pilots fall asleep
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Excerpt: 26 June
MUMBAI: An Air India Jaipur-Mumbai flight flew well past its destination with both its pilots fatigued and fast asleep in the cockpit. When the pilots were finally woken up by anxious Mumbai air traffic controllers, the plane was about half way to Goa
Excerpt: 26 June
MUMBAI: An Air India Jaipur-Mumbai flight flew well past its destination with both its pilots fatigued and fast asleep in the cockpit. When the pilots were finally woken up by anxious Mumbai air traffic controllers, the plane was about half way to Goa
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This is what happens when you're too good for the buddy system: All two/three guys wind up asleep at the switch!
Take turns you id**ts! Take turns!
Or do like Emery used to on the DC-8 and set an alarm clock up on the glareshield. But don't overshoot LAX toward HNL from Dayton because your too cheap to buy everyready!
(two hours total off shore.. they made it back on fumes)
Take turns you id**ts! Take turns!
Or do like Emery used to on the DC-8 and set an alarm clock up on the glareshield. But don't overshoot LAX toward HNL from Dayton because your too cheap to buy everyready!
(two hours total off shore.. they made it back on fumes)
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If an airline put a few hundred pilot seats in the back they would make the passengers very happy!
If an airline put a couple of passenger seats up the front then the problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.
If an airline put a couple of passenger seats up the front then the problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.
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I think it's more a lack of understanding basic pricipels of CRM and bad written handbooks, together with the Asian philosophy not to show any personal weakness. Most Asian airlines don't allow short naps. That's the result sometimes.
Dani
Dani
wake up at the front!
Stupid question from a SLF,If the plane left on time then the flight attendants must assume it will land on time so after overflying Mumbai didnt they get worried?Is there no way into the cockpit for them?Perhaps a dead mans handle device on the control column might help!!
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> If an airline put a couple of passenger seats up the front then the
> problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.
How true. I once spent 14 hours on a coach across europe. I noticed the lady sitting behind the driver kept prodding him. She later complained to the tour company and told us she knew he was asleep because he'd never once complained about being prodded.
> problem of pilots sleeping would be solved.
How true. I once spent 14 hours on a coach across europe. I noticed the lady sitting behind the driver kept prodding him. She later complained to the tour company and told us she knew he was asleep because he'd never once complained about being prodded.
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FAA Addressing Pilot Fatigue
This piece is in today's AVweb newsletter. I like the "enhanced data collection" part
"'FAA Examines Cockpit Fatigue And Finds ...
The FAA brought together 325 experts last week to spend three days discussing the problem of fatigue in aviation operations, and the agency says the symposium produced agreement on two major points -- fatigue is a problem, and something should be done about it. No, we're not kidding -- that's from the FAA news release. 'The FAA hopes the participating individuals and organizations will use the information and concepts shared during the symposium as a springboard to develop effective fatigue management strategies,' the agency says. We're not sure what those strategies might be (dogs in the cockpit?), but reading the FAA's news release is probably not one of them. So in the interest of battling fatigue, we'll summarize.
"'Many experts consider the key to addressing the problem [to be] scientifically based fatigue risk management systems,' the FAA says. Those guiding scientific principles should be developed through "enhanced data collection.' Just to keep us off-balance (and alert), the FAA turned up one useful suggestion -- it was noted that employees who excuse themselves from duty due to fatigue should not be penalized.
"'The conferees recognized that incorporating fatigue risk-management systems into everyday operations is the ultimate goal, but doing so will take innovation in addressing a myriad of regulatory issues,' the FAA concluded, and we hope you stayed awake till the end of that sentence."
AVwebFlash Complete Issue
"'FAA Examines Cockpit Fatigue And Finds ...
The FAA brought together 325 experts last week to spend three days discussing the problem of fatigue in aviation operations, and the agency says the symposium produced agreement on two major points -- fatigue is a problem, and something should be done about it. No, we're not kidding -- that's from the FAA news release. 'The FAA hopes the participating individuals and organizations will use the information and concepts shared during the symposium as a springboard to develop effective fatigue management strategies,' the agency says. We're not sure what those strategies might be (dogs in the cockpit?), but reading the FAA's news release is probably not one of them. So in the interest of battling fatigue, we'll summarize.
"'Many experts consider the key to addressing the problem [to be] scientifically based fatigue risk management systems,' the FAA says. Those guiding scientific principles should be developed through "enhanced data collection.' Just to keep us off-balance (and alert), the FAA turned up one useful suggestion -- it was noted that employees who excuse themselves from duty due to fatigue should not be penalized.
"'The conferees recognized that incorporating fatigue risk-management systems into everyday operations is the ultimate goal, but doing so will take innovation in addressing a myriad of regulatory issues,' the FAA concluded, and we hope you stayed awake till the end of that sentence."
AVwebFlash Complete Issue
Last edited by Robert Campbell; 26th Jun 2008 at 23:15.
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Incident: Indian Airlines A320 at Mumbai on June 4th 2008, loss of communication, pilots allegedly asleep
Servus, Simon
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The original report said..
"Said an air traffic controller: "The aircraft should have begun its descent about 100 miles from Mumbai, but here it was still at cruising altitude".
So perhaps more than just a comms issue?
"Said an air traffic controller: "The aircraft should have begun its descent about 100 miles from Mumbai, but here it was still at cruising altitude".
So perhaps more than just a comms issue?
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fatigue or other factor??
Would it be safe to say that one pilot falling asleep due fatigue is quite unlikely? two pilots falling asleep due fatigue?? not realistic!!
some other factor in the cabin more likely?
some other factor in the cabin more likely?
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Would it be safe to say that one pilot falling asleep due fatiue is quite unlikely? two pilots falling asleep due fatigue?? not realistic!!
No it wouldn't in my opinion
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What about the cockpit alarm that sounds if no input is made to a dial/switch/etc by one of the pilots after X minutes? Non-functional or am I making this up?
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fatigue?
more like something put them to sleep? In my opinion it is highly unlikely that both pilots fell asleep naturally due fatigue at the exact same time?
One pilot would have nodded of first, I am presuming that the pilot NOT asleep would have noticed this and maybe gave him/her a nudge?
The only plausable explanation would be that something put them asleep at the exact same time, unless this is a common occurence for pilots to take naps together at the same time whilst approaching their destination?
find that very hard to believe?
One pilot would have nodded of first, I am presuming that the pilot NOT asleep would have noticed this and maybe gave him/her a nudge?
The only plausable explanation would be that something put them asleep at the exact same time, unless this is a common occurence for pilots to take naps together at the same time whilst approaching their destination?
find that very hard to believe?
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New Acronyms
So now we can add PA and PNA to the list of acronyms. Pilot Asleep and Pilot Not Asleep.
Last edited by Robert Campbell; 27th Jun 2008 at 14:55.
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Pretty standard public reaction.
This is why this problem never gets fixed. All these armchair aviators and SLF in a state of shock that a guy who is on duty for over 16 hours straight isn't entitled to a break of any kind. What other job keeps you doing demanding tasks this long? Just stare straight ahead with your eyelids propped open by toothpicks, and pretend to be looking out the window like superman? The issue is microsleeps. Involuntary periods where even though your eyes are open; the lights are on, but nobody's home.
Recall how ticked off you were when some idiot woke you up at 2am for nothing. This is a pilots normal life operating when body temp and organs start shutting themselves down because, says your body: "dummy: it's time to go to sleep."
Even doctors and surgeons leave their patients on automation and go take a nap in a closet. Otherwise, when full brain function is really needed (like a difficult landing or cardiac arrest) all you've got is a groaning mummy hovering over the accident waiting to happen.
Pilot pushing has created this problem. Solution is dedicated onboard rest facilities and heavy crew imho. Until more of that is agreed to, the thrillseekers in the back will have have just hope that the Pilot Flying doesn't fall asleep on base turn for intercept like we occasionally did on the redeye. Kind of embarrassing to shoot through the localizer cuz crew control won't quit mixing redeyes with day flights week after week.
Makes me not want to travel in the back!
This is why this problem never gets fixed. All these armchair aviators and SLF in a state of shock that a guy who is on duty for over 16 hours straight isn't entitled to a break of any kind. What other job keeps you doing demanding tasks this long? Just stare straight ahead with your eyelids propped open by toothpicks, and pretend to be looking out the window like superman? The issue is microsleeps. Involuntary periods where even though your eyes are open; the lights are on, but nobody's home.
Recall how ticked off you were when some idiot woke you up at 2am for nothing. This is a pilots normal life operating when body temp and organs start shutting themselves down because, says your body: "dummy: it's time to go to sleep."Even doctors and surgeons leave their patients on automation and go take a nap in a closet. Otherwise, when full brain function is really needed (like a difficult landing or cardiac arrest) all you've got is a groaning mummy hovering over the accident waiting to happen.
Pilot pushing has created this problem. Solution is dedicated onboard rest facilities and heavy crew imho. Until more of that is agreed to, the thrillseekers in the back will have have just hope that the Pilot Flying doesn't fall asleep on base turn for intercept like we occasionally did on the redeye. Kind of embarrassing to shoot through the localizer cuz crew control won't quit mixing redeyes with day flights week after week.
Makes me not want to travel in the back!
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pacplyer,
Although I agree with all your statements, I think these guys do have to take some blame here. We as pilots are paid to be the last loop in a very complex system. When all of the contributing factors (which you have pointed out quite nicely) line up, it's up to us to end the chain. If these guys started their day so tired, they should have simply reported unfit. Regardless of state rules, airline policy, etc., we have a duty to report unfit when necessary. Imagine how angry you would be if you got on a bus and the driver kept falling asleep. Who would you blame (bus company, government, police)? I would blame the driver.
Although I agree with all your statements, I think these guys do have to take some blame here. We as pilots are paid to be the last loop in a very complex system. When all of the contributing factors (which you have pointed out quite nicely) line up, it's up to us to end the chain. If these guys started their day so tired, they should have simply reported unfit. Regardless of state rules, airline policy, etc., we have a duty to report unfit when necessary. Imagine how angry you would be if you got on a bus and the driver kept falling asleep. Who would you blame (bus company, government, police)? I would blame the driver.
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@carbis22
I don't find it suspicious at all that two pilots can fall asleep at around the same time.
I'm only one of the dreaded slf, but you only have to read these forums a bit to see that both of them could be at the end of a very long working day which could well have started at an unsocial hour after a partial and fitful night's sleep.
Add to this the fact that the flight deck is warm and comfortable (well comfortable if not a 777 seat--see, I do read these things!) and features a background "white noise" from the wind which is not dis-similar to the sort of "sleep generator" you can buy and I can see exactly why sleep is an issue.
Obviously there are CRM issues going on here which I won't comment on, not being a pilot myself. However, when I hear of regulators trying to slacken even more the rules about duty hours and off time, professional pilots certainly have my active support in opposing such changes.
Bobbsy
I don't find it suspicious at all that two pilots can fall asleep at around the same time.
I'm only one of the dreaded slf, but you only have to read these forums a bit to see that both of them could be at the end of a very long working day which could well have started at an unsocial hour after a partial and fitful night's sleep.
Add to this the fact that the flight deck is warm and comfortable (well comfortable if not a 777 seat--see, I do read these things!) and features a background "white noise" from the wind which is not dis-similar to the sort of "sleep generator" you can buy and I can see exactly why sleep is an issue.
Obviously there are CRM issues going on here which I won't comment on, not being a pilot myself. However, when I hear of regulators trying to slacken even more the rules about duty hours and off time, professional pilots certainly have my active support in opposing such changes.
Bobbsy