Fairchild Merlin twinprop disappeard off coast in Norway

[Dream Land]

Joshua, I don't think any of us here that actually flew the machine could care less what you call it. As long as the system is calibrated and the CB is in, it works fine, occasionally annoying when you have a strong tail wind on the ground.

[talkpedlar]

I have to say..

..that I have never read an accident report with such a combination of sadness, anger and despair. This sort of thing should not be happening in the 21st century.

[M.Mouse]

I have to express the same sentiments as talkpedlar. When you look at this accident, the AA overrun and crash in Jamaica and the AF447 disaster you realise that lack of basic airmanship, flying skills and common sense judgment are not confined to airlines where corruption, lack of money, lack of training and nepotism are rife.

[Dream Land]

Well that's a pretty broad spectrum, not trying to argue with you, but this pretty much covers all accidents.

It was fairly well known that the Metro could break in either direction and lose up to 5000 ft in the process,

[LeadSled]

Pulling the c/b on the SAS illegal, who are the geniuses that invent this type of training, this airframe requires the SAS system for a reason, what a waste of life.

Folks,
As recently as 18 months ago, Australian CASA Flying Operations Inspectors (FOI) were demanding pulling the SA Cb on SA 227 and pulling the aircraft into a full stall ----- despite the certification prohibitions --- clearly spelled out in the AFM, and placards.

The ability to put a Metro II/III/23 into a deep stall was rejected by said FOIs.

Fortunately, in this case, the company head of C&T had far more experience and knowledge than said CASA employees, and refused, subsequently a strongly worded letter from the Type Certificate holder reduced said FOIs desired to commit pre-planned suicide due lack of knowledge of the aircraft characteristics.

Tootle pip!!

[The Wawa Zone]

Not related to the Norwegian accident, but another great example of what undocumented home-grown ingenuity can lead to:

Investigation: 200404589 - Aircraft Loss of Control, Lake George, NSW; VH-TAG, SA227-AC Metro III

If a procedure or exercise is documented, then there is time to stop it before it gets misused in the air, and briefing an undocumented procedure is a warning sign !

[ironbutt57]

Not only undocumented procedures, complete lack of aircraft systems knowledge....

[Reinhardt]

Originally Posted by Joshua

"...and a wing tip stalled, I remember it vividly as the nose dropped through the horizon and the wing dropped giving a bank angle of 90 to 100 degrees. Full opposite rudder was applied"

You have been lucky. Applying rudder wouldn't have come to my mind as first action. Seriously, how many aircraft have been lost in the history of aviation, praticing engine shut-off, stall recoveries ... ? If no simulator, we have trainer aircraft, with benign flight characteristics, to get the basics. If the aircraft is a little bit less forgiving, well start by expecting that engines will not fail, and in the long term your company or country will gain...
I think the RAF came to that conclusion, regarding Canberra training : in 40+ years of service, more airframes were lost in training for engines failures, that it would have been by just allowing the engines to fail by themselves...

[ironbutt57]

"Push and roll" .....rudder not advised due the high angle of attack, and the rudder still being highly effective...basic upset recovery technique in ANY airplane..

[MR. PROACH]

Full stall - metro III (sa227at) i.e with a bolt on wing extension: 12,000 ft to recover and thats when you do things correctly. Anyone looking to fly it needs to always consider an increase in the ref speeds due weight, temp, load and wind, and if practicing or training stalling go to the rumble, if you must the buffet, but not the break, and defo not the stall...... Day vfr. Geez in IMC these clowns murdered a perfectly innocent trainee.

[Squealing Pig]

12,000 ft to recover and thats when you do things correctly.

One must ask how did this type get certified with such poor stall characteristics?

[what next]

One must ask how did this type get certified with such poor stall characteristics?

By installing a stall avoidance system as described above! (I have had the pleasure, so to say, to fly this thing. Luckily, my TRI and TRE were smart enough to always start stall recovery when the stick shaker activated.)

[LeadSled]

One must ask how did this type get certified with such poor stall characteristics?

Squealing Pig,
Once you get beyond simple FAR 23 (or equivalent) singles, the certification requirements become quite different --- and stalling an aircraft becomes a Test Pilot only exercise, with test additions such as a anti-spin chute.
There are a few aircraft around, including the Metro, that can develop an unrecoverable deep stall.
Tootle pip!!

[MR. PROACH]

Perhaps something useful during training would also be a simple look at the wing shape from above....... How does this long thin wing behave with and without power over the surfaces? How does it compare to a King Air, Mu2 etc? What happens when the 12 knots of wind down the runway dissapears on short final? Do I ever need to get near a full flap ref approach to a short runway? Can I trust the shaker to warn me when I'm already in the descent phase.... Aoa is great if in my scan, If I have it..... If I'm climbing out and retracting flaps is it better to lower the nose a bit before going back to a climb profile.... Trainees please be thinking long and hard about this stuff. I got bitten, but I'm here to tell the tale. Be safe all.

[ironbutt57]

[I]Can I trust the shaker to warn me when I'm already in the descent phase./I]


The stick pusher in the SA-226/227 aircraft is based on AOA vane input, and flap position...