Engineneer death in Tenerife South during engine test
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inlet screens - for protecting engines or people?
This is just an amateur's guess (and maybe a bit offtopic), but would an inlet screen really have saved the life of the engineer?
I would imagine that they are good for protecting the engine / fans, but a person getting sucked into the screen in front of an engine at takeoff power wouldn't survive anyway unless wearing a helmet / protective clothing etc...?
I would imagine that they are good for protecting the engine / fans, but a person getting sucked into the screen in front of an engine at takeoff power wouldn't survive anyway unless wearing a helmet / protective clothing etc...?
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"Are the engines on a A320 FADEC controlled and if so can someone pls give me a sound reason for being near a FADEC equiped engine?
I do runups on mechanically controlled engines (although not high bypass ratio), during engine trims you have to be at the engine for adjustments.
I cannot think of any reason for being anywhere near a running engine which is FADEC controlled.
No adjusments to be made equalls STAY CLEAR!!
My thoughts are with the relatives he leaves behind "
In answer to your question, there are a multitude of reasons why you might have to be near a running FADEC controlled engine,not least leak checking components recently fitted which may require higher power settings than idle.
However ALL safety precautions should be taken, including not encroaching on suction areas, which also extend rearwards of the lip, and may require safety harnesses to be worn.
Whilst an engine run guard would not have prevented the suction grabbing the poor guy it would have stopped him being sucked into the engine and given time for the crew to shut down the engine.
There was a guy a BA years back who was sucked into a VC10 engine and was saved by his large anorak and the IGV's. Lost his arm and damaged his hearing I believe......
RIP the poor guy in Tenerife
I do runups on mechanically controlled engines (although not high bypass ratio), during engine trims you have to be at the engine for adjustments.
I cannot think of any reason for being anywhere near a running engine which is FADEC controlled.
No adjusments to be made equalls STAY CLEAR!!
My thoughts are with the relatives he leaves behind "
In answer to your question, there are a multitude of reasons why you might have to be near a running FADEC controlled engine,not least leak checking components recently fitted which may require higher power settings than idle.
However ALL safety precautions should be taken, including not encroaching on suction areas, which also extend rearwards of the lip, and may require safety harnesses to be worn.
Whilst an engine run guard would not have prevented the suction grabbing the poor guy it would have stopped him being sucked into the engine and given time for the crew to shut down the engine.
There was a guy a BA years back who was sucked into a VC10 engine and was saved by his large anorak and the IGV's. Lost his arm and damaged his hearing I believe......
RIP the poor guy in Tenerife
Sadly a silar thing happened at Hatfield in the late 80's resulting in a fatality when one of the engineers was ingested into a 502. Shortly after the incident gaurds were placed in front of all engines prior to to ANY engine run. That was a manufacturers response, but today I dont see any similar device used on any runs perfomed when either coming out of heavy maintenance. It takes the loss of a person to ram home the effect, but of course it's too late. Effective and training and confidence of actions plus situational awareness are key to being safe if there is no mechanical means of ingestion prevention. My sympathies to the poor guys family.
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You are correct Plane Speaker.
There is too much emphasis on rush rush rush nowadays. It takes something like this to make people sit up and then it's usually only for a short time....
There is too much emphasis on rush rush rush nowadays. It takes something like this to make people sit up and then it's usually only for a short time....
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The inlet screens we used in the USN on F-4's and A-7's caused surging,false indications,and were a nightmare to inspect and maintain.I remember the poor NDI guys inspecting every weld on every square of mesh screen! probably some of the reasons airlines don't use them.
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With regard to the statement about leak checking components at above idle power settings, there is still no need whatsoever to be near the engine. Developer spray can be used for leak checking fuel/oil components and developer/tin foil can be used for pneumatic components.
As for trim adjustments, if the components that need adjusting are inside the danger areas for that power settings, you do not go near them.
As for trim adjustments, if the components that need adjusting are inside the danger areas for that power settings, you do not go near them.
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but a person getting sucked into the screen in front of an engine at takeoff power wouldn't survive anyway unless wearing a helmet / protective clothing etc...?
For those who haven't tried working near the front of an engine at full power, its easy to lose concentration and get too far into the intake depression. I always tied myself to the stand when doing trim runs on the VC10.
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Hi,
Here a quote from another aviation forum:
1-I am wondering if this method is still applied for the recent engines?
2-Is there any procedure in the maintenance manuals to lock the prop during engine run-up to have relatively closer look at the engine with cowls open?
Is it possible to approach (but not really close) a turboprop with open cowls and in THRUST REVERSE to have a closer look to the engine during run-up?
Feedback appreciated.
Thank you.
Here a quote from another aviation forum:
As to strapping the fan, I looked this up in the A310 mm, though Im pretty sure it applies to all JT9's, sorry cant link it.
The mm says you CAN use this procedure while performing test 03. Test 03 is basically a leak test which is required after the replacement of many engine components. P&W calls it a "locked fan rotor ground run". The mm is very specific about how you strap the fan, they call for installing seven straps which must be woven through the fan blades at specific clock locations. The straps must be positioned "outboard of and against the mid span shroud as far outboard on fan exit vanes as possible".
The advantage of using this procedure is you can run the engine with ALL of the cowling open. The disadvantage is it obviously takes lots of time to set up and you are supposed to have fire fighting equipment standing by because the engine fire bottles will be ineffective with the cowling open. You can not go above ground idle. As an alternative you can do test 03 with the cowling closed (no straps) then open it up and look for leaks.
The mm says you CAN use this procedure while performing test 03. Test 03 is basically a leak test which is required after the replacement of many engine components. P&W calls it a "locked fan rotor ground run". The mm is very specific about how you strap the fan, they call for installing seven straps which must be woven through the fan blades at specific clock locations. The straps must be positioned "outboard of and against the mid span shroud as far outboard on fan exit vanes as possible".
The advantage of using this procedure is you can run the engine with ALL of the cowling open. The disadvantage is it obviously takes lots of time to set up and you are supposed to have fire fighting equipment standing by because the engine fire bottles will be ineffective with the cowling open. You can not go above ground idle. As an alternative you can do test 03 with the cowling closed (no straps) then open it up and look for leaks.
2-Is there any procedure in the maintenance manuals to lock the prop during engine run-up to have relatively closer look at the engine with cowls open?
Is it possible to approach (but not really close) a turboprop with open cowls and in THRUST REVERSE to have a closer look to the engine during run-up?
Feedback appreciated.
Thank you.
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Thanks Aero Tech,
Fantastic post. Bet no one was aware of the procedure. I must confess, however, that I am a little confused. When you state A310mm I am not aware of any JT9d's hung on an A310. Are you saying these are common procedures between the engine types?
Thanks for any clarification, maybe I read it wrong.
I find the unspoken mtc procedures to be fascinating.
Thanks again.
pac
Fantastic post. Bet no one was aware of the procedure. I must confess, however, that I am a little confused. When you state A310mm I am not aware of any JT9d's hung on an A310. Are you saying these are common procedures between the engine types?
Thanks for any clarification, maybe I read it wrong.
I find the unspoken mtc procedures to be fascinating.
Thanks again.
pac
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Sorry,
It's happy hour here!
I see now that it's a quote you took from another forum.
Could you be so kind as to provide a link?
And please disregard my earlier post as it applies to qualified mtc personnel.
Cheers,
pac
It's happy hour here!
I see now that it's a quote you took from another forum.
Could you be so kind as to provide a link?
And please disregard my earlier post as it applies to qualified mtc personnel.
Cheers,
pac
Aerotech - with regard to the turboprop - you could approach - but there isn't really any reason.
Only reason I have ever had to approach a turboprop running was the stupid early Metros where the ground power receptacle was in the side of the nacelle - brown trouser experience that.
Have been in the wheel well of a Dash 8 with engine in Start/Feather leak checking a hyd component that could only be powered up off EDP.
Otherwise - stay the f*ck away - especially at power.
Dash scares me at power inside let alone anywhere near it outside - people give me strange looks when I put on the belts before giving it the onions - I've seen one leap before.
Only reason I have ever had to approach a turboprop running was the stupid early Metros where the ground power receptacle was in the side of the nacelle - brown trouser experience that.
Have been in the wheel well of a Dash 8 with engine in Start/Feather leak checking a hyd component that could only be powered up off EDP.
Otherwise - stay the f*ck away - especially at power.
Dash scares me at power inside let alone anywhere near it outside - people give me strange looks when I put on the belts before giving it the onions - I've seen one leap before.
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Thanks Threemiles,
It's coming back to me now. Yes those Pratts that we operated with all the reverser problems were actually part of the JT9D family of big fans.
We got rid of them in asia since they weren't reliable for our culture (no, I can't elaborate further; had to do with inbreeding.....) GE CF6's were light years ahead in reliability and performance for us.
Forgot all about those. Pratts didn't even have a real fadec as I recall. Some scheme called PFD or PFM and MEC? or something?
can't remember now.
It's coming back to me now. Yes those Pratts that we operated with all the reverser problems were actually part of the JT9D family of big fans.
We got rid of them in asia since they weren't reliable for our culture (no, I can't elaborate further; had to do with inbreeding.....) GE CF6's were light years ahead in reliability and performance for us.
Forgot all about those. Pratts didn't even have a real fadec as I recall. Some scheme called PFD or PFM and MEC? or something?
can't remember now.
Last edited by pacplyer; 1st Jul 2008 at 13:05.
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"In answer to your question, there are a multitude of reasons why you might have to be near a running FADEC controlled engine..."
How about manually closing the start valve?
How about manually closing the start valve?
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Guys, thank you for your posts.
Pacplyer, I apologize for the delay to answer you. Here the link (Please read reply (post) 27)
Rattling CFM56's? — Tech Ops Forum | Airliners.net
Since I didn't get answer regarding the procedure of strapping the fan during engine run-up, I assume this method was applied only for JT9 engines. Is this true?
I never worked on a turboprop. I am wondering if a mechanic was unable to detect a leak by using developer spray/tin foil not efficient to detect the leak(s) OR was performing trim adjustements (if they exist in turboprop), is it possible to approach the turboprop while running?
Do you think tought that using thrust reverse will allow to approach relatively the turboprop?
I assume only few turboprops can be operated on "hotel mode" as an APU where the prop is locked: in such case I assume it is easy to approach the engine.
Feedback appreciated.
Thank you.
Pacplyer, I apologize for the delay to answer you. Here the link (Please read reply (post) 27)
Rattling CFM56's? — Tech Ops Forum | Airliners.net
Since I didn't get answer regarding the procedure of strapping the fan during engine run-up, I assume this method was applied only for JT9 engines. Is this true?
I never worked on a turboprop. I am wondering if a mechanic was unable to detect a leak by using developer spray/tin foil not efficient to detect the leak(s) OR was performing trim adjustements (if they exist in turboprop), is it possible to approach the turboprop while running?
Do you think tought that using thrust reverse will allow to approach relatively the turboprop?
I assume only few turboprops can be operated on "hotel mode" as an APU where the prop is locked: in such case I assume it is easy to approach the engine.
Feedback appreciated.
Thank you.
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ground running
Having worked on the Dart & the Tyne, yes we used to be under the engine when it was running.
With either engine in "ground fine pitch" the propellor was onle discing "ie" not producing any thrust. There was no reverse on the Dart (Viscount) but you would not be able to approach the Tyne (Vanguard) if it was in reverse.
The main difference was that the Tyne was a constant speed engine so to get the correct pressures etc you had to go to High ground idle & this was what was needed to carry out leak checks etc.
tristar 500
With either engine in "ground fine pitch" the propellor was onle discing "ie" not producing any thrust. There was no reverse on the Dart (Viscount) but you would not be able to approach the Tyne (Vanguard) if it was in reverse.
The main difference was that the Tyne was a constant speed engine so to get the correct pressures etc you had to go to High ground idle & this was what was needed to carry out leak checks etc.
tristar 500
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To highlight the dangers of working around running engines (be it Cessna 150 or A380)
I was told by an engineer at TFS: Apparently a ground run was going on (high speed run), one engineer under the engine (secured to the engine with a harness) and an engineer on the headset by the nose gear talking to the flight deck. The engineer under the engine signaled to the engineer on the headset to shut the engine down - the signal was not understood, so the engineer approached the engine from the side to speak to the person under the engine - the instruction was communicated, and the unfortunate engineer rather that walking sideways away from the engine walked forward. That one mistake near a prop or jet and it could be your last.
I was told by an engineer at TFS: Apparently a ground run was going on (high speed run), one engineer under the engine (secured to the engine with a harness) and an engineer on the headset by the nose gear talking to the flight deck. The engineer under the engine signaled to the engineer on the headset to shut the engine down - the signal was not understood, so the engineer approached the engine from the side to speak to the person under the engine - the instruction was communicated, and the unfortunate engineer rather that walking sideways away from the engine walked forward. That one mistake near a prop or jet and it could be your last.
