Cabin Air Contamination
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The “facts” that Gaspasser posted look like they were from a government (e.g. COT) report or similar. To try and bring some balance, here are some other facts:
1. As early as 1977, a C130 navigator became incapacitated, and further investigation into breathing heated oil fumes was called for.
2. and 3. Agreed
4. and 5. As well as TOCP, oil also contains MOCP and DOCP (mono and di-) which are more toxic and are present in much greater quantities, so any estimation of the toxicity of the oil would have been hugely underestimated.
6. Due to the “wet” nature of their design, no seal can be 100% effective, so there is always going to be some, even if a little, background level of toxins. Some seal designs are better than others and some operators’ maintenance procedures are better than others, so yes, some types or airlines feature more.
Unfortunately the COT studies deal in misinformation and doubt, so any real headway in seeking answers is never forthcoming.
1. As early as 1977, a C130 navigator became incapacitated, and further investigation into breathing heated oil fumes was called for.
2. and 3. Agreed
4. and 5. As well as TOCP, oil also contains MOCP and DOCP (mono and di-) which are more toxic and are present in much greater quantities, so any estimation of the toxicity of the oil would have been hugely underestimated.
6. Due to the “wet” nature of their design, no seal can be 100% effective, so there is always going to be some, even if a little, background level of toxins. Some seal designs are better than others and some operators’ maintenance procedures are better than others, so yes, some types or airlines feature more.
Unfortunately the COT studies deal in misinformation and doubt, so any real headway in seeking answers is never forthcoming.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Flight did something on the stuff the Beeb and the Telegraph reported, but didn't appear that impressed with the proposed tests:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-flight.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...g-systems.html
Comment here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-is-toxic.html
Shortie
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-flight.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...g-systems.html
Comment here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-is-toxic.html
Shortie
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Boeing to House of Lords - 2007
Boeing are proud of their new Boeing 787 and their primary PR reason is that the 'no bleed air achitecture' (sounds like the design of a Church) is so much more efficient in saving fuel - sounds great doesn't it? to any non flier.
The real reason can be found in Boeing's submission to The House of Lords (who one MUST NOT *** to) from 2007 which is copied here exactly from their official Memorandum to their non flying and easily misled Lordships
:
"The Boeing 787 will have a no bleed architecture for the outside supply to the cabin. This architecture eliminates the risk of engine oil decomposition products from being introduced in the cabin supply air in the rare event of a failed engine compressor seal. In addition, this architecture improves fuel efficiency, thus reducing fuel burn and associated engine emissions"
Some honesty, please!
DO NOT PASS THIS INFORMATION ON!
IT IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD - YET!
DB
The real reason can be found in Boeing's submission to The House of Lords (who one MUST NOT *** to) from 2007 which is copied here exactly from their official Memorandum to their non flying and easily misled Lordships
:"The Boeing 787 will have a no bleed architecture for the outside supply to the cabin. This architecture eliminates the risk of engine oil decomposition products from being introduced in the cabin supply air in the rare event of a failed engine compressor seal. In addition, this architecture improves fuel efficiency, thus reducing fuel burn and associated engine emissions"
Some honesty, please!
DO NOT PASS THIS INFORMATION ON!
IT IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD - YET!DB
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Cabin Air
This thread reminds me that when I worked for Pan Am in the early 80's that the cabin crew used to complain about cabin air quality and would train each other up to check how many 'pax' systems were on when they went to the flight deck (tea, coffee or are you awake) - this was the time of the ozone scares. These were allegedly shut down to save fuel. I wonder how many airlines are reducing air conditioning today to save fuel ?? (cough, gasp, splutter)....
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Stagn - it may remind you nostalgically of the issue of how many air con packs you selected on during the night, or what proportion of bleed/recirculated air you used, but cabin air contamination is not about that. It's about the air being poisoned with neurotoxins composed of complex organophosphates from heated oil additives when the oil seals leak. It may only have happened on a small proportion of flights, but many people's lives have been changed forever by such incidents, and they don't even know why.
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Bleed Air History
Was a pilot briefly on the Bae-146-100 with ALF-502 and 503 engines. Fun, fun airplane. Experienced guys running the ground school informed us that on the first flight of the day it was quite possible after the APU was fired up and the packs turned on before boarding to get a bad smell like vomit in the cabin. This was "Pack Oil" the instructor said, and it had leaked into the bleed air system overnight.
One aircraft that hasn't been mentioned as case law for cabin air contamination is the MD-80 series. A few years ago flight attendants for American or Delta (can't remember) won a huge lawsuit in the U.S. over the leaked memo from MD that admitted that they had placed a skydraul overflow drain upwind of the pack intake, and in this memo advised that they would not be involved in moving it. Very damning evidence. Court ruled that the drain be moved since flight attendants and passengers sometimes witnessed a mist layer visible in the cabin and became ill. It was reported in the papers, unfortunately only the plaintiff flight attendants got damages and the judge issued a gag order on the amount and other terms of the settlement.
Always seemed like something was eating my rubber shoe soles after preflight. Very toxic Skydraul all over the ramp! I remember feeling like crap frequently when I rode in the back of those MD80's. Might explain why I only have 80% of my lung efficiency left!
One aircraft that hasn't been mentioned as case law for cabin air contamination is the MD-80 series. A few years ago flight attendants for American or Delta (can't remember) won a huge lawsuit in the U.S. over the leaked memo from MD that admitted that they had placed a skydraul overflow drain upwind of the pack intake, and in this memo advised that they would not be involved in moving it. Very damning evidence. Court ruled that the drain be moved since flight attendants and passengers sometimes witnessed a mist layer visible in the cabin and became ill. It was reported in the papers, unfortunately only the plaintiff flight attendants got damages and the judge issued a gag order on the amount and other terms of the settlement.
Always seemed like something was eating my rubber shoe soles after preflight. Very toxic Skydraul all over the ramp! I remember feeling like crap frequently when I rode in the back of those MD80's. Might explain why I only have 80% of my lung efficiency left!
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When I first started working on the 146, I was told by a very experienced engineer that when starting the apu after a night-stop that it should be allowed to run for a good 20 minutes before selecting bleed air. So that any oil that had accumulated overnight would be burnt off. I also know for a fact that after deicing has been carried out some pilots will run apu bleed air on the first sector!! Then snag the a/c for fumes!!!
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Aerotoxic Association Anniversary
The AEROTOXIC ASSOCIATION celebrates its FIRST ANNIVERSARY today! 18th June 2008.
www.aerotoxic.org
Click on the cake for a surprise....you know you ought to know!
Due to popular demand, we have decided to make the whole site FREE to all.
Forum and health survey still protected by 'membership'.
New feature includes: A petition to the UK Prime Minister to be signed by anybody concerned that bleed air is NOT filtered.
Thanks to everybody for your continued support and encouragement over this vital issue - for all.
DB
www.aerotoxic.org
Click on the cake for a surprise....you know you ought to know!
Due to popular demand, we have decided to make the whole site FREE to all.
Forum and health survey still protected by 'membership'.
New feature includes: A petition to the UK Prime Minister to be signed by anybody concerned that bleed air is NOT filtered.
Thanks to everybody for your continued support and encouragement over this vital issue - for all.
DB
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Beaver Man,
Yes, Glycol fumes from de-icing fluid dripping into the bleed air intakes are now disclosed to crews as being extremely toxic; glad you mentioned it. U.S. airline legal depts are disclosing that to employees sometimes to avoid labor suits.
The 727 was real bad about coming back from the northeast in winter; even a day later, the fumes from the apu bleed into the packs would give us the most excruciating headaches (intake was in the wheel well for christsakes, how the helll did the contract de-icer shoot it into there? Guess they were removing ice and snow from the wheel well in way too thorough a fashion.) It was awful. Made you hate the job and take your vacation in winter to avoid that nastiness.
Running the 146 on apu bleed the whole flight was possible IIRC. But wouldn't that restrict the altitude permitted? It did on our airplanes, IIRC. And that put you down into turboprop traffic which slowed you way down and vectored you all over the place adding 30 minutes sometimes to flight time. I have trouble believing this claim. I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying they did it just to write it up and cause a mtc hardship? Why would anybody poison themselves intentionally? Now I'm not sure you understand what was happening there. It was common when I flew the 146 to start the APU on approach and switch packs to apu bleed in the air to 1. get extra power for go-around with engine bleeds off if you needed it (heavy, mountains) 2. have it up and running for a quick engine shutdown to save fuel.
Cheers,
pac - out
Yes, Glycol fumes from de-icing fluid dripping into the bleed air intakes are now disclosed to crews as being extremely toxic; glad you mentioned it. U.S. airline legal depts are disclosing that to employees sometimes to avoid labor suits.
The 727 was real bad about coming back from the northeast in winter; even a day later, the fumes from the apu bleed into the packs would give us the most excruciating headaches (intake was in the wheel well for christsakes, how the helll did the contract de-icer shoot it into there? Guess they were removing ice and snow from the wheel well in way too thorough a fashion.) It was awful. Made you hate the job and take your vacation in winter to avoid that nastiness.
Running the 146 on apu bleed the whole flight was possible IIRC. But wouldn't that restrict the altitude permitted? It did on our airplanes, IIRC. And that put you down into turboprop traffic which slowed you way down and vectored you all over the place adding 30 minutes sometimes to flight time. I have trouble believing this claim. I'm not sure I understand your post. Are you saying they did it just to write it up and cause a mtc hardship? Why would anybody poison themselves intentionally? Now I'm not sure you understand what was happening there. It was common when I flew the 146 to start the APU on approach and switch packs to apu bleed in the air to 1. get extra power for go-around with engine bleeds off if you needed it (heavy, mountains) 2. have it up and running for a quick engine shutdown to save fuel.
Cheers,
pac - out
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ALL jet aircraft are prone to this problem; until very recently ALL jet oils, civil and military, have OPs as an anti wear additive.
Some individuals seem to be immune, and other ones can be permanently effected by a single exposure. May I draw you attention to Susan Michaelis' "Contaminated Air Reference Manual"
Just my .005 penny worth!! I may well be an effected one
db16
Some individuals seem to be immune, and other ones can be permanently effected by a single exposure. May I draw you attention to Susan Michaelis' "Contaminated Air Reference Manual"
Just my .005 penny worth!! I may well be an effected one
db16
