BALPA withdraw from Open Skies Court Case
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the hell happened to you?
Collected tax-free salary overseas (long before it bacame fashionable to do so) and smiled all the way to the bank.
BA pilots, as I see it, have a definite problem...they simply cannot face reality in today's cost-driven airline world.
Too bad for them.
Will they continue to complain?
Yep, 'tis assured.
Now, if legislation can be changed, perhaps BA pilots will stop complaining and actually do something about it.
Don't hold your breath.
The cards were stacked against BA pilots (and BALPA) long ago.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: london
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you'll find BALPA fight many battles which have nothing to do with BA, but as there are a lot of us Nigels in BALPA it is only right they might spend more on the fights that do involve BA.
Do you not get that?
There is so much anti-Nigel feeling on this forum, it stinks. We are all professional pilots for heavens sake, what is it with all the nastiness?
Get a life, and start to consider how we are all being attacked by Corporate greed here.
Do you not get that?
There is so much anti-Nigel feeling on this forum, it stinks. We are all professional pilots for heavens sake, what is it with all the nastiness?
Get a life, and start to consider how we are all being attacked by Corporate greed here.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: south east UK
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see what is causing all the vitriol and / or hand-wringing here. (Apart from the fact that there are some very entrenched anti-nigel and anti-ba management opinions here)
Seems to me that BA have threatened to use a new, and thus untested law in a dubious manner, BALPA have got a bit bolshy standing up to it and a judge (probably the only cool head in this argument) has reminded both parties that this will go all the way, take years and cost (probalby 10's of millions, possibly more). Both sides have seen sense and stepped back from the line.
I don't see a victory for anyone here, nor a need to run around panicking that this is the beginning of the end for pilots everywhere.
At some point in the near future case law will be provided by someone on this issue and It will probably result in a situation not alot different from where we are at the moment.
I don't have an axe to grind about BA, or its pilots, but I really don't see what the fuss is.
Seems to me that BA have threatened to use a new, and thus untested law in a dubious manner, BALPA have got a bit bolshy standing up to it and a judge (probably the only cool head in this argument) has reminded both parties that this will go all the way, take years and cost (probalby 10's of millions, possibly more). Both sides have seen sense and stepped back from the line.
I don't see a victory for anyone here, nor a need to run around panicking that this is the beginning of the end for pilots everywhere.
At some point in the near future case law will be provided by someone on this issue and It will probably result in a situation not alot different from where we are at the moment.
I don't have an axe to grind about BA, or its pilots, but I really don't see what the fuss is.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OMG
I can't believe that I am in agreement with a 411a post- BALPA, have got what they deserved 
!!- before you all shout, hear me out. I agree, anything that could potentially change t&c's for the worse, should be not taken lightly. Today however, it's not just a case of voting for strike action anymore. In earlier posts, it's mentioned perhaps getting some bigger unions involved. Sadly, the days of unions all sticking together, are long gone.
The average person on the street, many of them members of these bigger (wealthy) unions, have perceptions that the flying community are extremely well paid, live abroad, pay virtually no tax etc. I for one would be unsure that you would get the support you need from these people.
You have to choose battles carefully. BALPA I fear, have played this very badly, to it's members (not just BA) cost.
I can't believe that I am in agreement with a 411a post- BALPA, have got what they deserved !!- before you all shout, hear me out. I agree, anything that could potentially change t&c's for the worse, should be not taken lightly. Today however, it's not just a case of voting for strike action anymore. In earlier posts, it's mentioned perhaps getting some bigger unions involved. Sadly, the days of unions all sticking together, are long gone. The average person on the street, many of them members of these bigger (wealthy) unions, have perceptions that the flying community are extremely well paid, live abroad, pay virtually no tax etc. I for one would be unsure that you would get the support you need from these people.
You have to choose battles carefully. BALPA I fear, have played this very badly, to it's members (not just BA) cost.
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do agree with 757Driver...
But 3000 BA pilots donating 10% of their salary creates a ~£30 million slush fund overnight doesn't it...give or take a few million?
After all, various advocates were suggesting this was BA's battle....
Its just getting interesting!
But 3000 BA pilots donating 10% of their salary creates a ~£30 million slush fund overnight doesn't it...give or take a few million?
After all, various advocates were suggesting this was BA's battle....
Its just getting interesting!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I admit it. I am absolutely gutted at this outcome. I can't think of any other way to describe it other than a complete and utter disaster! I feel badly let down. All those bitter BA pilot haters, go ahead, have a field day at our expense. Fill your boots. 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: cloud 9
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10% of salary to belong to BALPA?? Are you sure??
BALPA has come up against both "The Establishment" and reality. The former is a reference to the Board and "UK PLC" and the latter is to what is happening in the world's economies today. Another loss of earnings and customer confidence is not sensible at this moment. It is quite possible that in a years time, less than a handful of airlines will report a profit and with industrial action, BA may not be one of them.
Wake up to reality - now is not the time to strike. With Maxjet, EOS and probably Silverjet out of business, perhaps "Openskies" will be shelved until the global economy and oil prices stabilise again. Once the "good times" return, is the time to take action. Right now BALPA should concern itself with jobs security for ALL its members, including those in BA who may be affected by the planned grounding of airframes this coming winter.
BALPA has come up against both "The Establishment" and reality. The former is a reference to the Board and "UK PLC" and the latter is to what is happening in the world's economies today. Another loss of earnings and customer confidence is not sensible at this moment. It is quite possible that in a years time, less than a handful of airlines will report a profit and with industrial action, BA may not be one of them.
Wake up to reality - now is not the time to strike. With Maxjet, EOS and probably Silverjet out of business, perhaps "Openskies" will be shelved until the global economy and oil prices stabilise again. Once the "good times" return, is the time to take action. Right now BALPA should concern itself with jobs security for ALL its members, including those in BA who may be affected by the planned grounding of airframes this coming winter.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: MAN
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You will not make the Cr@p airlines good by diminishing the Best airlines!
Trust me I work for Thomsonfly. BALPA needs to regroup and foster a spirit of unity and a slick professional association that represents all UK Pilots at the highest level.
Walk quietly and carry a big stick! BALPA stop shooting your mouth off!
MacAuslan and Saunders
Trust me I work for Thomsonfly. BALPA needs to regroup and foster a spirit of unity and a slick professional association that represents all UK Pilots at the highest level.
Walk quietly and carry a big stick! BALPA stop shooting your mouth off!
MacAuslan and Saunders
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: desert climate
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to agree MacAuslan is the biggest waste of space in BALPA head office. He outraged the majority of the uk pilot community by inferring that if you were not BA then you were not up to standard (re BA038). Its about time he realised that his £100k salary is paid by US the pilots, he works for US, BALPA is not a business its an association (or some would say a union). The small guys sometimes need more protection than the major customer (BA) thats why we have a union, this is where MacAuslan has failed. Failed for the BA members and failed for the smaller outfits as well.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Paradise
Age: 52
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not just MacAuslan, it's the BA Pilots attitude.
This was doomed to failure from day one, if only on the grounds of deepest pockets. Aside from the fact that it was quite clear this was never going to be a winner on logical or legal grounds, what I found offensive was the arrogance, the pomposity, the "I'm all right Jack - oh, and please go to the barricades to help me out or you're a scab" attitude which meant that I had to give up a promotion, a future and a pay rise to support those who were already at the top of the tree.
YEAH - RIGHT!
This was doomed to failure from day one, if only on the grounds of deepest pockets. Aside from the fact that it was quite clear this was never going to be a winner on logical or legal grounds, what I found offensive was the arrogance, the pomposity, the "I'm all right Jack - oh, and please go to the barricades to help me out or you're a scab" attitude which meant that I had to give up a promotion, a future and a pay rise to support those who were already at the top of the tree.
YEAH - RIGHT!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Wouldn't you like to know !
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting to see the criticism levied at 411A when he was proved absolutely right. Weird really from so many supposedly intelligent people:
In context:
"If you try and fly at a speed below VS, you will stall, and at 500 feet, probably die."
"No, no, we can fly at any speed, we know best, we'll prove we're right, if you don't agree - well you must be a scab!"
"Er, well, actually, you'll get more than scabs if you insist on.......................................................... ...........................................................K APOW/CRASH/WRENCH/RIP/TEAR/EXPLOSION/ DESTRUCTION..............................erm, I hate to say
!"
In context:
"If you try and fly at a speed below VS, you will stall, and at 500 feet, probably die."
"No, no, we can fly at any speed, we know best, we'll prove we're right, if you don't agree - well you must be a scab!"
"Er, well, actually, you'll get more than scabs if you insist on.......................................................... ...........................................................K APOW/CRASH/WRENCH/RIP/TEAR/EXPLOSION/ DESTRUCTION..............................erm, I hate to say
I told you so
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: over the hill
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correlli, you are so full of it you must have brown eyes. Makes a change from green though, doesn't it?
Glad to see 411a show his true colours saying, in effect, "I got mine tax free but you guys dont deserve it". Nice. And completely in character, it seems.
I presume then, 411a, that you approve of the wholesale offshoring of US jobs? That you oppose the various anti-free trade measures long championed by the Good Ol' US of A to protect its own industry, like for example, the restriction of foreign ownership rights in US airlines? Go on, give us your thoughts from your sunny retirement spot.
Glad to see 411a show his true colours saying, in effect, "I got mine tax free but you guys dont deserve it". Nice. And completely in character, it seems.
I presume then, 411a, that you approve of the wholesale offshoring of US jobs? That you oppose the various anti-free trade measures long championed by the Good Ol' US of A to protect its own industry, like for example, the restriction of foreign ownership rights in US airlines? Go on, give us your thoughts from your sunny retirement spot.
Controversial, moi?
It is not so much the fact that 411A sometimes is right it is the supercilious and downright obnoxious manner with which he never misses an opportunity to snipe at BA in particular and pilots in general.
I actually find him unpleasant and would guess that he is one very sad individual to feel the need to constantly display such vitriol which is why I have long since stopped responding to his antagonistic waffle.
What is being missed in the general debate is that the case law which BALPA has been faced with has only just become case law. It became very quickly self-evident in very recent days that until that case law is overruled, which it surely will be in the fullness of time, BALPA stood a very real chance of losing big time.
For those who wish to examine the wider issue that caused the withdrawal see here for a flavour: http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ntext...sion-laval.htm
The balance of power in industrial relations has just changed more dramatically than people probably realise.
I actually find him unpleasant and would guess that he is one very sad individual to feel the need to constantly display such vitriol which is why I have long since stopped responding to his antagonistic waffle.
What is being missed in the general debate is that the case law which BALPA has been faced with has only just become case law. It became very quickly self-evident in very recent days that until that case law is overruled, which it surely will be in the fullness of time, BALPA stood a very real chance of losing big time.
For those who wish to examine the wider issue that caused the withdrawal see here for a flavour: http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/ntext...sion-laval.htm
The balance of power in industrial relations has just changed more dramatically than people probably realise.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Midlands
Age: 59
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whereas any BA pilot with the hypocrisy to criticise ANYONE for a
well, must be the non-handling flying non operating landing pilot......
supercilious and downright obnoxious manner
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Around the block
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unions has not always been great. Thats quite international. IFALPA maybe could do something for BALPA, like helping them changing tactics?
In this case, even though I am not a Nigel, I do think BALPA made a misstake of picking a fight at the wrong time at the same time letting their members (BA) down. It seems that they forget who actually is paying their wages...
BALPA has its reasons, but I agree that they dont always perform "to the highest standard". I have been let down too. Maybe time to show that we are not happy?!
Together we are strong
In this case, even though I am not a Nigel, I do think BALPA made a misstake of picking a fight at the wrong time at the same time letting their members (BA) down. It seems that they forget who actually is paying their wages...
BALPA has its reasons, but I agree that they dont always perform "to the highest standard". I have been let down too. Maybe time to show that we are not happy?!
Together we are strong
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Midlands
Age: 59
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and for Mr Mouse:
What is actually being missed is that BALPA realised that this would probably effectively bankrupt them. Possibly it was legally winnable, but not within the timeframe of the BALPA bank accounts.
God has always been on the side of the big battalions, but he has also historically shied away from hypocrites. One of the best spin-offs has been the lack of comment from Hand Solo. Hurrah.
Moral - never pick a fight you can't win.
What is actually being missed is that BALPA realised that this would probably effectively bankrupt them. Possibly it was legally winnable, but not within the timeframe of the BALPA bank accounts.
God has always been on the side of the big battalions, but he has also historically shied away from hypocrites. One of the best spin-offs has been the lack of comment from Hand Solo. Hurrah.
Moral - never pick a fight you can't win.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: over the hill
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
M. Mouse, the point is that the process of law has achieved a ruling that defies long accepted political freedoms, and for that reason will undoubtedly not be allowed to act in the way that it currently has to deny unions the right to ballot their membership and to take strike action.
It is a fundamental change that has been created not by a legislative process with the explicit political consent that is inherent in that, but as a by-product of litigation that has such overhwelming social and political consequences that it will undoubtedly be overturned in a legislative forum. If it is not, and I remain utterly confident that it will, then employees of any firm in Europe have been reduced to a new form of serfdom, as someone else put it. I very much doubt that that situation will be allowed to stand and it would have very fundamental ramifications for all European democracies if it did. I re-iterate: it wont.
It is a long standing legal principle that Judges interpret the law as it is before them, they do not set social policy. If it is "bad law" then it is for a legislative forum to change it. This is "bad law" precisely because it creates a situation where a Judicial forum has been used to fundamentally alter social policy for which there is no political mandate to do so. It will not stay this way, but may take a substantial time to alter, during which time Mr Walsh will offshore BA to his hearts' content.
It is a fundamental change that has been created not by a legislative process with the explicit political consent that is inherent in that, but as a by-product of litigation that has such overhwelming social and political consequences that it will undoubtedly be overturned in a legislative forum. If it is not, and I remain utterly confident that it will, then employees of any firm in Europe have been reduced to a new form of serfdom, as someone else put it. I very much doubt that that situation will be allowed to stand and it would have very fundamental ramifications for all European democracies if it did. I re-iterate: it wont.
It is a long standing legal principle that Judges interpret the law as it is before them, they do not set social policy. If it is "bad law" then it is for a legislative forum to change it. This is "bad law" precisely because it creates a situation where a Judicial forum has been used to fundamentally alter social policy for which there is no political mandate to do so. It will not stay this way, but may take a substantial time to alter, during which time Mr Walsh will offshore BA to his hearts' content.
Last edited by ShortfinalFred; 24th May 2008 at 00:21.