Balpa membership and BA

[the heavy heavy]

ssschmokin1,

firstly, anybody who passed a selction process to have their flying training paid for by either the RAF/RN/Army was NOT lucky. i've got painful news for you my friend that by the time a military pilot earns the right to stand in the bar wearing his wings and shooting the breeze he has earned that right by skill and talen,m period. you might want to believe that he is not any better than you but the stats and my experience would seem to suggest otherwise. if it wasn't about talent the RAF would just take the first 100 applications and train them to fly helicopters in afghanistan, fast jets in iraq and drop food and paras out the back of hercs after flying on nvgs at low level. they don't and we will never know if you could becaue you either failed the interview or didn't go because you don't believe in having a military. either way given how 'badly' you wanted to fly you didn't want to take the hardest way to a set of wings.

secondly, flying with BA cadets for the last 8 years only reinforces that whatever else is wrong with BA they know how to recruit the right people to train and put in a 757 cockpit with 200hrs exp. again given the numbers that apply and the numbers that got trained the numbers suggest that theese individuals also are not LUCKY just talented. maybee you need to believe that its luck that delivered the silver spoons but having worked for the prestwick grads who are now 744 skippers i can assure they got where they are by talent.

thirdly, i have many friends who came up the hard way. i respect them without reservation and enjoy flying with them immensly. there is a big diff from starting at your local glider club, instructing, and then moving on to the lcc, charters and scheduled airlines than just pitching up at ryan air or wherever and paying for your training and working for peanuts.

finally, i have no doubt you and I would have no problem operating together and having a beer down route having enjoyed a trouble free, crm positive experience. our abilty to judge each others ability secured over a 12 hour flight. our backgrounds a source of interest and a chance to exchange experiences. i have no hang ups with anybody because of who they work for. I assume the best until shown otherwise. where we differ is i refuse to accept that those pilots who have bought there postions can blame everybody else for state of the industry and the nose-dive to poor t&c's. I joined the RAF without having a clue what the pay was. anybody who adopts the same attitude towards a career in civil aviation and then works at a rate that undermines all our conditions has nothing but my contempt.

we CANNOT get enough pilots of sufficient standard at interview at BA, we are looking at starting up the cadet courses again as a result. the available pool of young/late start pilots is not up to scratch. this is a fact! you may celebrate the fact that people want to bankrupt themselves to fly but i think it's the fuel in the fire that drives MOL and WW's dream of low cost, MINIMUM standard pilots working harder than is safe to maximise profits. i on the other hand want to see more cadets getting trained, the military expanding and giving the 'lucky' few the most amazing oppurtunity. most of all i want to see everybody who has the hands and brains to do the job well get a chance rather than just those that can pay. i would have not have been able to become a pilot if i'd had to self fund.

off course not everyone who pays for there own course or starts late is not up to scratch. the cityflyer integration at BA is the perfect example. the influx of theese guys to the 744 brought a crop of excellent talented young guys, many average easy going opertators and those that would never have passed an interview anywhere else! again no doubt you will call this arrogance, i believe that the re-training stats would back me up.

i congratulate your achievment, if you worked for free or paid for your type rating then we will have to differ on what we feel the impact of that action has had on the ambitions of airline ceos.

[Capot]

he has earned that right by skill and talent

Absolutely, old boy, never doubted it.

But without, how much, say £500,000 of taxpayers' funds he/she would still be flipping burgers. So credit where credit's due, please; the money is not begrudged, but it's still about the best piece of good luck he/she will ever have, and I can't see the problem with acknowledging it.

[Dan D'air]

£500,000 of taxpayers' funds

It costs just short of seven million to train an operational, deployable FJ mate these days. Euro lottery ticket for tonight anyone?

[wobble2plank]

Hmmm, helluva lot of luck to get through the application process, pass the interview, pass the aircrew selection, get through basic officer training, survive grading, pass elementary flying training, basic flying training, operational flying training, front line flying training, standards flight year after year, simulator checks (full operation environment and tactics) every year, IRT (flown in aircraft with real failures !!!).

Oh, and on the basic officer training, grading, EFT, BFT, OFT it is generally one shot only then you're out. Not very luvvie duvvie! But then, gotta stretch that lucky £500,000

Thread creep, sorry

[Finger Bob]

BA has strong Balpa membership. Those members have come from various sources such as LCC's, the military and straight out of flying school. Many of us have seem the impact of weak union membership in previous companies.

Balpa is only as strong as it's members. Your Company Council is elected by you. Yes, complain that it isn't working but also be prepared to do something about it.

Lets all drive up Terms and Conditions!

[DFC]

the heavy heavy,

From reading your posts I can detect an absolute love for WW.

You are totally in love with the way that he got to where he is today - pilot selection at Aer Lingus, Cadet programme, training paid for by the Tax payer, promotion and elevation to the ranks of earning the big bucks and keeping well clear of the pond life.

There can be no other ideal manager for a man such as yourself.

Not only that but he is Irish.

You scored 10 out of 10 in your criteria when he got the job at BA

Regards

DFC

[the heavy heavy]

touche

yes i am in fact in love with willy, only slight less than with myself

[overstress]

There really are some rissoles on this forum. We (and I mean BA pilots from whatever background) are constantly told how lucky we are, and if we had the temerity to give 8/12/16 years of service to HMQ in exchange for being paid to be taught to fly, we are even luckier.

Well I have news for you wind-up merchants. I, like my contemporaries, have made my own luck. Those of us who have slogged our guts out to achieve high standards care little to see the profession debased and undermined by the petty and small minded. Those who work for free are out of their minds IMO.

You can be sure that BA pilots will defend their terms and conditions against the current crop of "here today, and if I may say so, gone tomorrow" management. It would be quite nice to think that we had the unanimous support of our fellow professionals, but some here seem not capable of grasping the basic issue.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

"yes i am in fact in love with willy, only slight less than with myself"

Poor old HH, good job he likes himself (and Willie) as I doubt too many others do.

He does not even have enough common sense to realise that by denigrating the ability of some of his fellow pilots, who may not have quite the same "superb level of flying skills or personal charm", but can do their job perfectly well, he is calling into question the "worth" of all pilots including "wunderkind" such as himself.

The millions of pounds of tax payers money may have taught HH how to loop the loop and blow the crap out of people but not surprisingly perhaps it apparently failed to teach him any respect for others.

By the way, didn't Prince William just get his RAF wings after a whole 4 months training? Now to be fair, William is not a total numbnut like his old man but would hardly qualify as one of the "best and brightest" so perhaps HH might not be superman after all?

[the heavy heavy]

bill,

You can teach a monkey to fly, I believe NASA did. If you believe that the ability to fly an airliner in normals ops is demanding then fair enough. I tend to believe that its a good idea to have the best people money can buy in the right seats for when the holy sh$t day comes along. Sioux city, the SAS md80, the ba Lagos flight all spring to mind. U appear to have missed my point that the present day managers armed with the safety stats of the modern jet are now so confident that a monkey can do it they have decided they can afford to hire the cheapest and not the best pilot. Im old fashioned, I'd rather be flown by people I trust. Happily jump on an easy flight, wouldn't touch a Ryan air one. Does that clear it up for u?

As for my popularity, im pretty happy that I get on with most of the people I meet and the last 18 years of checks and course's have pretty much confirmed I'm a pretty average bloke amongst a group of pretty talented operators. Excuse me if this is arrogant but Ive been judged by the hardest task masters in the business and not been found wanting, well not often. I'll stop flying when I'm dumb enough to believe I've stopped learning. Im certainly not a superstar, I do know a few though, but I've never paid for a minutes flying. I've had 2 interviews and got 2 jobs. I've trained with men who had talent in abundance and died because they made mistakes. I learned everybody makes mistakes and some of us get lucky and live to learn from them. I've been trained by men whose abilities and conviction were inspiring. At no time did I find myself in a cockpit that I hadn't worked my bollix off to get into on merit, never had to pay a bribe to sit there.

So that all said I, like you, have earned my right to an opinion. You may think its arrogant to want to work with those that have the aptitude and ability regardless of financial resources. I think its sad that you seem to have no idea of the standards and ideals those who made flying a profession strived to achieve.

I refuse to apologise for holding in contempt those that feel that having undermined the principle of fair pay in order to get in cockpits and who now demand balpa spends its energy not fighting for an industry wide line in the sand but for improving the lot of the very pilots that have given ww and mol the evidance that they can demean our position and destroy our futures.

[Bill of the Hamptons]

HH,

From what you say you started your flying with the military and have been around long enough to have had your civil training paid for by your employer.

Today the military is still an option for a few to learn to fly, but for many the "authoritarian" and "Rank" environment would be unacceptable. Unlike in your time the opportunities for sponsorship by airlines is limited or non existant.

So since the self sponsored route is effectively the only route open to becoming a pilot these days your dismissive attitude is not only unjustified, it makes no sense. The willingness of people to show their commitment,by paying their own money, rather than use someone elses, should be lauded.

If you are still flying and have not moved to the "Dark Side" I assume that you must fly with some of these "awful self funded chappies" as there must be increasing numbers at BA. It might hurt your pride, but by definition they are just as "good" as you and there are more of them currently flying for Easy, Ryan or whoever on their way!

The pilots at the other airlines would of course like to have better T&C's but for people like you to consider them as "inferior" and the "enemy" rather than the Management suits the latter perfectly. Rather than denegrate them it would be better to show solidarity, with a view to trying to improve conditions across the board. As others have pointed out, if the conditions at BA deteriorate then this will affect pilots elsewhere. Of course it would be equally true that if conditions improved elsewhere then they would at BA also. Time to recognise and know your enemy and as far as you can act together to overcome him.

By the way, as a person who appears to have an aversion to people paying their own way, could I be impertinent and ask if you are amongst the 10% or so of BA pilots who are happy to freeload by not belonging to BALPA?

[king surf]

Never had to pay a bribe to sit there!! What are you suggesting HH??
If BA pilots want our support do not imply that the rest of us have bribed our way into flying.

[Right Engine]

BA's training is not as impressive as we (BA pilots) would like to think. I believe that our recruitment is robust and we tend to set a minimum standard that sometimes causes 'shortages of suitability', but our training community have become slowly wedded to management. Senior positions within the training community tend to be managers or trainers who are keenest to become managers (with notable exceptions). The result is that the overall 'ethos' within BA has been one of risk management rather than airmanship. 'Airmanship' was even outlawed by training as an expression of overall ability a few years back!

Where the misconceptions lie within the non-BA UK flying community is the belief that BA pilots are arrogant or even think themselves superior to others. They garner this impression from our conversations with ATCO's, which often are to the say the least, 'assertive' in nature. From our side of the cockpit door, we are gagged by the industries most limiting SOP's that are formulated from the "Ministry of Trend Analysis".

SESMA (Trend Analysis) has caused the outlawing of Manual Throttles on the Airbus. The insistence of Gear Down at 2000' (Only changed recently on the basis of fuel useage). The list is very long. Most are sensible gates. Some are not.

We are governed by Risk Analysis first, Airmanship second and I hope that we differ from other UK pilots because of that. I would contest that our priorities, for a company our size, are in the right order. Where we seem to lack 'skill' is some of our community find it difficult to put subtly, our more restrictive SOP's within the context of the flying environment to other pilots and ATCO's!

The Heavy Heavy

I sometimes think that one of the main reasons for our disfunctional relationship with our managers is because at the moment, the BACC consists mainly of non-ex-military and management is mainly ex-military.

[puddle-jumper2]

Never had to pay a bribe to sit there

Nope, me neither.

Had to work as a tea boy in a tool shop and a baggage loader to pay for the 'self improver' route...... never applied to the RAF or BA

Guess that makes me inferior then

Bill,

Of course it would be equally true that if conditions improved elsewhere then they would at BA also.

Absolutely true, there is indeed a flip side to the coin that BALPA have been ignoring for years. Unfortunately it's now coming back to haunt them.

[757_Driver]

Blimey - why can't some people accept that just because some of us took different routes - doesn't make us any 'better' or 'worse'.

I guess HH must hate me - after all I'm self sponsored - not 'daddys' money, but the product of 15 years hard work in a professional career and some property development. I also didn't fly pointy things very fast, I didn't fail selection - I never applied, not what I wanted to do back then, I guess that makes me a bad pilot then.
I didn't get sponsored as there was no sponsorship available in the recession of the 90's. When BA re-introduced sponsorship, I applied at the ripe old age of 29. "sorry old boy, to old".
Yes I paid for my training, but I also worked hard, passed assesments and made my own luck.
I've got utter respect for anyone who gets the grade to do this job, but lets not pretend that some of us are superior, just because you were lucky enough to get sponsored training. And yes it was luck - sure you had to pass assesments and kudos to you for that, but it was luck that you were the right age in the right economic circumstances.

[M.Mouse]

Failed to notice any strike ballot over that - or was that only short haul where as this is the LONG HAUL holy cow!

Nice shot from the hip.

If you cannot be bothered to research the history then I for one cannot be bothered to explain.

[fivegreenlight]

HH, if you want a thread about how military pilots are better and BA pilots better then start your own thread.
Just to enlighten you there are many extremely capable pilots some exmil some pure civ background working in the other airlines.

In the mean time this is about the direction Balpa is going, NOT about BA

PS. I used to train EFT and I've seen your type before, I know exactly which drop file to put you in. Go figure.

Now I'll happily continue that argument in your own thread....

[Sleeve Wing]

Fascinating !
All this talk about who's good and who's bad.

We've ALL had to work bl**dy hard (despite what the average Joe Public thinks when he hears how much or how little we earn)
Doesn't matter whether we're ex-mil, Hamster, Prestwick, CTC or the long route from the local aero club.

Surprisingly some of the best "pairs of hands" I've ever come across are the ones who have started as a "chock" at the local airfield. They're in fact the ones who have worked the hardest.

Since when did sitting on autopilot at treetop, doing 500+kts, with matey in the back telling you where to go, qualify one to be an ace airline pilot ?

Come on, guys, we're all in the same boat. Take the blinkers off and support each other.

Rgds,
Sleeve. (Treetop,500+kts,single seat,no autopilot, oh, and a carefully folded half mil map.)

[Tinytim]

Nauseating arrogance from HH. Look forward to you answering if you are a paid up Balpa member......The principle of collective representation and surrendering to collective will never rests easily on you self obsessed sky gods in my experience.

In the meantime and, back to topic, I have to say that this months Log gives the impression that Balpa has only one issue in focus. What is more worrying is the appraisal by PN John Moore which clearly alludes to the fact that the very existence of Balpa is at stake as a result of this action.

[MaximumPete]

I entirely agree with Sleeve Wing.

I just wonder how much talent has been lost due to the policies of some of the major players.

MP