BALPA and BA talks breakdown
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BA aren't talking to the BACC about Cityflyer at the moment so pretty much nothing is happening. The ball's in BAs court until they decide what they want to do in 2010, although recognising previous service for a subsidiary in the mainline list would be fraught as we have plenty of ex-BACX pilots who'd probably want their seniority back dated as well. That one's a can of worms best left to the lawyers.
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Hand Solo,
.....this is exactly where, rightly or wrongly, I foresee a problem in the future.
1 seniority list, with 2 Company Councils, representing different interests and aspirations. (Unless, again, LGW and LHR have different CC's and the arrangement is already known to be workable).
It will only be a matter of time before both CC's are at each others throats with accusations of selfishness, protectionism, obstruction, etc of the type that are currently being levelled by pilots from the former BA subsidiaries.
Open Skies will run under it's own CC and will be responsible for it's own affairs, although with their pilots on the master seniority list there would undoubtedly be close links to the BACC.
1 seniority list, with 2 Company Councils, representing different interests and aspirations. (Unless, again, LGW and LHR have different CC's and the arrangement is already known to be workable).
It will only be a matter of time before both CC's are at each others throats with accusations of selfishness, protectionism, obstruction, etc of the type that are currently being levelled by pilots from the former BA subsidiaries.
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Ray - LGW (and previously the regions) had their own local councils who dealt with local issues such as rostering whilst larger issues like pay were dealt with on a central level. The relations between the different local groups are tied up pretty tightly with strict controls on where each group can operate, primarily to stop BA running down the best paid group and ramping up a lower paid group in order to do their work. The system was not entirely without tension, but to my mind worked better than having a free-for-all with everyone trying to undercut each other. Whilst you might occasionally be peeved by something, everyone knew they had their chance at the big shot at LHR and didn't want to destroy that. I would predict that an OS CC would work in a similar way. Their geographical area of operation would be fixed (as is Gatwicks) and the OS CC would deal with their own domestic issues. I don't know how pay would work but I'd hazard a guess the current system with the BACC negotiating centrally would be more beneficial than BA's planned system of having us all undercut each other.
Nobody every said it would be simple!
Nobody every said it would be simple!
HS
Simple with BA involved?? No, it never is.
Through yet more creative accounting, BA will ensure that as a subsidiary, OS never makes a significant profit if at all. Just as at Bacon and BA City Flyer (the new one) Mgt will constantly moan on about there not being any money in the pot and certainly nothing spare for a pay-rise.
WW (if he is still around) will make his usual threat “make a profit or you will closed”, half the pilots will believe this bull and the CC will be left powerless to do anything. They will be seen as ineffective by the disparate workforce and as usual “BALPA” will be blamed for everything. Just ask anyone at BACF. Manager = payrise / bonus : Worker = 0.
The secret to managing with this subsidiary issue, is to demand as part of the deal that representatives have full access to management accounts, (yes, pigs might fly) so that when Mgt claim that they are paying the market rate for handling, they actually mean the market rate and not the BA special internal rate.
It is becoming very clear that Bacon’s lack of profitability was down to the fact that they were paying way over the odds for services, often services procured by or from BA. I have heard of a factor of four in some instances. As an example, when BAR was merged into Bacon, BAR Handling (BHX) was spun off as yet another subsidiary. Not surprisingly, it instantly achieved an operating margin of 10% by selling services to its one and only customer – BA Connect.
It’s two directors also happened to be directors of BA Con. Bonuses all round boys…
BALPA needs to be very careful about how it manages the CC situation whatever happens.
Simple with BA involved?? No, it never is.
Through yet more creative accounting, BA will ensure that as a subsidiary, OS never makes a significant profit if at all. Just as at Bacon and BA City Flyer (the new one) Mgt will constantly moan on about there not being any money in the pot and certainly nothing spare for a pay-rise.
WW (if he is still around) will make his usual threat “make a profit or you will closed”, half the pilots will believe this bull and the CC will be left powerless to do anything. They will be seen as ineffective by the disparate workforce and as usual “BALPA” will be blamed for everything. Just ask anyone at BACF. Manager = payrise / bonus : Worker = 0.
The secret to managing with this subsidiary issue, is to demand as part of the deal that representatives have full access to management accounts, (yes, pigs might fly) so that when Mgt claim that they are paying the market rate for handling, they actually mean the market rate and not the BA special internal rate.
It is becoming very clear that Bacon’s lack of profitability was down to the fact that they were paying way over the odds for services, often services procured by or from BA. I have heard of a factor of four in some instances. As an example, when BAR was merged into Bacon, BAR Handling (BHX) was spun off as yet another subsidiary. Not surprisingly, it instantly achieved an operating margin of 10% by selling services to its one and only customer – BA Connect.
It’s two directors also happened to be directors of BA Con. Bonuses all round boys…BALPA needs to be very careful about how it manages the CC situation whatever happens.
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@Ray D'Avecta,
I did not say I'd happily rescind my T&C's with BA Mainline to join OS. However I'd be tempted to look into it when there are obvious benefits of living on the continent.
I'm taking a long term view on this and with the de-regulation of the markets, the future size & shape of any company is not known.
So when my airline of whom which I am employed by creates another company from our bottom line and uses our aircraft then I'd like to have a look in.
Equally any new joiners to that company I would like them to be able to progress their career in a bigger carrier. (not saying they have to, they CAN) It is what makes BA so great, you CAN do what you feel like at your position in time.
Now OS T&C's are less but being paid in Euro's, being able to tax deduct interest on a mortgage in Holland let's say, the cost of commuting taken away and living where you want to live, are some perks that are worth a serious amount of money to me.
I happily concede that the OS Costbase does not allow LHR T&C's, the BACC understands that. Just like it happens at LGW with a paycap. I don't have a job if we are not competitive. So for that reason, BA's arguement of running out of business is just plain crap.
They want to do as they please, THAT's the flexibility they want. And if you think that an employee is protected by that sort of mentality then people like 757coolpilot have got serious rose tinted spectacles on.
So from a cost perspective, I think we can match BA's aspirations.
As I can see any legit expansion for BA might well come out of OS, I can't forsee the future. There will be views 180deg adrift from what I'm saying and that's fine but some of their points will not and do not make sense. I am pretty sure a lot of guys would be DEAD PLEASED if OS would become a backdoor into BA (trust me, a fellow of mine who has an OS contract already alluded to that one)
From a pilots perspective to be able to move to different types, different bases etc within one company is a dream. And I think a lot of guys would appreciate that flex.
I did not say I'd happily rescind my T&C's with BA Mainline to join OS. However I'd be tempted to look into it when there are obvious benefits of living on the continent.
I'm taking a long term view on this and with the de-regulation of the markets, the future size & shape of any company is not known.
So when my airline of whom which I am employed by creates another company from our bottom line and uses our aircraft then I'd like to have a look in.
Equally any new joiners to that company I would like them to be able to progress their career in a bigger carrier. (not saying they have to, they CAN) It is what makes BA so great, you CAN do what you feel like at your position in time.
Now OS T&C's are less but being paid in Euro's, being able to tax deduct interest on a mortgage in Holland let's say, the cost of commuting taken away and living where you want to live, are some perks that are worth a serious amount of money to me.
I happily concede that the OS Costbase does not allow LHR T&C's, the BACC understands that. Just like it happens at LGW with a paycap. I don't have a job if we are not competitive. So for that reason, BA's arguement of running out of business is just plain crap.
They want to do as they please, THAT's the flexibility they want. And if you think that an employee is protected by that sort of mentality then people like 757coolpilot have got serious rose tinted spectacles on.
So from a cost perspective, I think we can match BA's aspirations.
As I can see any legit expansion for BA might well come out of OS, I can't forsee the future. There will be views 180deg adrift from what I'm saying and that's fine but some of their points will not and do not make sense. I am pretty sure a lot of guys would be DEAD PLEASED if OS would become a backdoor into BA (trust me, a fellow of mine who has an OS contract already alluded to that one)
From a pilots perspective to be able to move to different types, different bases etc within one company is a dream. And I think a lot of guys would appreciate that flex.
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@Shaka Zulu,
I apologise. I intentionally took your post out of context in order to try and make a point. I appreciate that your particular situation makes it necessary that you at least 'look at what is on offer' and weigh up the pros and cons. ( I work for an european airline and live in London, so if my company started a UK based equivalent of OS, I too would be compelled to have a look)
I can see too, that BA at some point, may begin to expand OS to the detriment of Mainline. What then? You may well be stuck on those OS T&C's with no option to go back to Mainline. The CC will then be in the unenviable position of having to fight on the one hand, for correspondingly improved T&C's at OS, and on the other hand, represent mainline pilots who feel that they are being 'forced' to accept the lower OS T&C's just to further their careers. A dilema, whichever way you look at it.
I apologise. I intentionally took your post out of context in order to try and make a point. I appreciate that your particular situation makes it necessary that you at least 'look at what is on offer' and weigh up the pros and cons. ( I work for an european airline and live in London, so if my company started a UK based equivalent of OS, I too would be compelled to have a look)
I can see too, that BA at some point, may begin to expand OS to the detriment of Mainline. What then? You may well be stuck on those OS T&C's with no option to go back to Mainline. The CC will then be in the unenviable position of having to fight on the one hand, for correspondingly improved T&C's at OS, and on the other hand, represent mainline pilots who feel that they are being 'forced' to accept the lower OS T&C's just to further their careers. A dilema, whichever way you look at it.
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When you say to the detriment of mainline, do you mean a reduction of mainline aircraft?
Or do you mean a stationary LHR/LGW operation but an expanding mainline.
We've got to be careful not to get into nitty gritty of potential what if's.
As outlined before the reasons for a BA pilot to be part of it are quite clear, we would also like the OS guys to have the unfettered right (as per the seniority system) to move to different bases and different payscales if they so please.
It's better to work together than against eachother, it's the wet dream of any company.
Or do you mean a stationary LHR/LGW operation but an expanding mainline.
We've got to be careful not to get into nitty gritty of potential what if's.
As outlined before the reasons for a BA pilot to be part of it are quite clear, we would also like the OS guys to have the unfettered right (as per the seniority system) to move to different bases and different payscales if they so please.
It's better to work together than against eachother, it's the wet dream of any company.
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if the BA-Contintental anti-trust alliance gets going then the whole rational for openskies will be redundant. BA would have to scrap it IMO as Conti won't want us competing directly on JFK-CDG/BRU etc...
I hope all you lot who went against the BALPA/IALPA recruitment ban are well protected...
I hope all you lot who went against the BALPA/IALPA recruitment ban are well protected...
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I have heard recently that the OS project is now planned to expand to 18 a/c very quickly. It will use all the BA 757s. These a/c unlike most of the other a/c in the BA fleet are owned (not leased) by the company. Thus unlike other business class airlines there is a significant cost advantage as BA has already written down their purchase cost.
Also a question are the staff to be paid in GBPs or Euros? Operating out of Europe one would have thought Euros.
Also a question are the staff to be paid in GBPs or Euros? Operating out of Europe one would have thought Euros.
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Even overpaid journalists are beginning to see the light!!http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3866853.ece
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HS
It is becoming very clear that Bacon’s lack of profitability was down to the fact that they were paying way over the odds for services, often services procured by or from BA. I have heard of a factor of four in some instances. As an example, when BAR was merged into Bacon, BAR Handling (BHX) was spun off as yet another subsidiary. Not surprisingly, it instantly achieved an operating margin of 10% by selling services to its one and only customer – BA Connect. It’s two directors also happened to be directors of BA Con. Bonuses all round boys…
BALPA needs to be very careful about how it manages the CC situation whatever happens.
Sounds very familiar.
MAN was run down by BA, citing "costs".
Cargo was ditched and replaced by Doomwoodys, and guess who happens to be on the board of that company...........
Kevin Hatton's wife.
As a famous man once said, "Make of that what you will........"
BA is rotten from the core, I wouldn't be surprised to see Burkwood involved with OS at some point.
It is becoming very clear that Bacon’s lack of profitability was down to the fact that they were paying way over the odds for services, often services procured by or from BA. I have heard of a factor of four in some instances. As an example, when BAR was merged into Bacon, BAR Handling (BHX) was spun off as yet another subsidiary. Not surprisingly, it instantly achieved an operating margin of 10% by selling services to its one and only customer – BA Connect. It’s two directors also happened to be directors of BA Con. Bonuses all round boys…
BALPA needs to be very careful about how it manages the CC situation whatever happens.
Sounds very familiar.
MAN was run down by BA, citing "costs".
Cargo was ditched and replaced by Doomwoodys, and guess who happens to be on the board of that company...........
Kevin Hatton's wife.
As a famous man once said, "Make of that what you will........"
BA is rotten from the core, I wouldn't be surprised to see Burkwood involved with OS at some point.
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LONDON (Reuters) - The British Air Line Pilots' Association has withdrawn court action against airline British Airways (LSE: BAY.L - news) <BAY.L>, a BALPA spokesman said, signalling a potentially costly pilots' strike has been averted.
Shares in British Airways climbed 5.2 percent to 213 by 4:24 p.m. on Thursday.
"We have withdrawn the action," said BALPA spokesman Keith Bill by phone on Thursday. "We will give our reasons later."
The union had gone to court to assert its right to strike because members were unhappy that pilots at BA's OpenSkies subsidiary airline will have different conditions to existing staff.
British Airways in a statement: "The union accepted in court that its ballot in support of industrial action was time-expired and gave an undertaking not to pursue any future ballot on the same issue."
BALPA's members were concerned that OpenSkies, which will fly passengers from European mainland capitals to the United States, will use BA planes, support staff and managers but not BA pilots.
BA welcomed the news the court action had come to an end just four days into an expected two-week trial, noting that tickets for the first OpenSkies flight from Paris to New York on Jun. 19 went on sale on Thursday.
BALPA had asked the court to rule that its right to strike over BA's proposed OpenSkies service was not limited by BA's rights to establish operations in other EU states.
BALPA said earlier this year 86 percent of its 3,000 pilots at BA had voted for industrial action. The strike threat was not the first for BA, which a year ago narrowly averted a costly 48-hour strike by cabin crew by agreeing new working conditions.
Shares in British Airways climbed 5.2 percent to 213 by 4:24 p.m. on Thursday.
"We have withdrawn the action," said BALPA spokesman Keith Bill by phone on Thursday. "We will give our reasons later."
The union had gone to court to assert its right to strike because members were unhappy that pilots at BA's OpenSkies subsidiary airline will have different conditions to existing staff.
British Airways in a statement: "The union accepted in court that its ballot in support of industrial action was time-expired and gave an undertaking not to pursue any future ballot on the same issue."
BALPA's members were concerned that OpenSkies, which will fly passengers from European mainland capitals to the United States, will use BA planes, support staff and managers but not BA pilots.
BA welcomed the news the court action had come to an end just four days into an expected two-week trial, noting that tickets for the first OpenSkies flight from Paris to New York on Jun. 19 went on sale on Thursday.
BALPA had asked the court to rule that its right to strike over BA's proposed OpenSkies service was not limited by BA's rights to establish operations in other EU states.
BALPA said earlier this year 86 percent of its 3,000 pilots at BA had voted for industrial action. The strike threat was not the first for BA, which a year ago narrowly averted a costly 48-hour strike by cabin crew by agreeing new working conditions.
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Strike called off?.......Well, thats good news....
.....depending on what the compromise solution was / is. 
am sure we will all get to find out on here in due course
.....depending on what the compromise solution was / is. am sure we will all get to find out on here in due course
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Congratulations to ba management for achieving a positive outcome.
Hopefully this will put a line under this matter and everyone can move forward.
I suspect that ba's concessions are withdrawn, so os pilots may be able to fly out of lhr and hopefully lower the cost of flying to the public.
Hopefully this will put a line under this matter and everyone can move forward.
I suspect that ba's concessions are withdrawn, so os pilots may be able to fly out of lhr and hopefully lower the cost of flying to the public.
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Walnut
Unless Willie has been very active in the sale/leaseback market recently, I think you'll find your assertion re the 757s that most of the fleet is leased to be ill-founded.
As of end 2006 (excluding the props, barbie jets and 146s cut loose with BACon)
Fixed assets: 186 (incl. 13 x 757)
Leased: 57
While some of the A320 series fleet deliveries might have bumped that up a touch I doubt the up to date figure is near 50:50 yet.
Presumably you meant that BA are looking for an additional 5 a/c when you said 18 - typical that they would be looking for an aircraft which they themselves disposed of a whack of before Aviation Partners made them sexy, cost-effective and in demand again with those winglets.
Unless Willie has been very active in the sale/leaseback market recently, I think you'll find your assertion re the 757s that most of the fleet is leased to be ill-founded.
As of end 2006 (excluding the props, barbie jets and 146s cut loose with BACon)
Fixed assets: 186 (incl. 13 x 757)
Leased: 57
While some of the A320 series fleet deliveries might have bumped that up a touch I doubt the up to date figure is near 50:50 yet.
Presumably you meant that BA are looking for an additional 5 a/c when you said 18 - typical that they would be looking for an aircraft which they themselves disposed of a whack of before Aviation Partners made them sexy, cost-effective and in demand again with those winglets.
