Cathay pilot 'sacked for Top Gun stunt'
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....but I was yesterday flying in Singapore and in the local Newspaper, there is a full page, with pictures of this event, but , more tricky, some replies from this thread were added on the article and make the journalist talk about the safety....
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1 - Never read anywhere that he exceeded a speed limit?
2 - Also, never heard of a low approach limit of 500ft AGL
2 - Also, never heard of a low approach limit of 500ft AGL
2. Already addressed by Pugilistic Animus
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Excellent Photo
KPAE, the home of The Boeing Company and ATS, a major independent airliner overhaul facility has a long history of such flights.
It is interesting that others have referred to this low pass as a Top Gun stunt. Top Gun's air-to-air photography was done using a Lear Jet with top and bottom mounted servo driven cameras to get the "gee whiz" dog fight pictures in that film. It was also used to get some of the air-to-air shots used in common airline TV advertising.
I have participated in a number of such ground shots at KPAE and one done from the Lear Jet. This Lear flight was to film a Boeing airliner take off, landing, and cruise series of video shots for TV advertising. It called for the airliner to be on KPAE 16R’s take off position while the Lear approached the field from the north. The Lear called for the airliner’s throttle up and brake release as it lined up just west of 16R with its speed slow enough to track the airliner’s take off roll through lift off and climb out.
The landing sequence was a bit more interesting. The airliner did a short final approach to 34L with the Lear, tracked in formation through the turn, and descent through touchdown. The Lear was over a taxiway and climbed out to get back in the pattern for its landing. All of this was very precisely preplanned, and to my knowledge met with the airline’s ops requirements. It did require that both pilots had formation flying skills that are not practiced in normal airline flying.
There are two types of pilots that I have encountered over twenty-five years of this process. The airline “line” pilots that fly passenger loaded airplanes every day are highly skilled and very comfortable with the routine flight procedures, but had some trouble with the typical post maintenance test flights that deviated from the normal routines. Many airlines use specific crews for doing post maintenance test flights that are better trained for such activities. Ferry flights and test flights are conducted under rules, but different rules from revenue passenger flights.
It is unfortunate that the subject flight caused concern. It appears that it ran afoul of CP’s internal procedures.
It is interesting that others have referred to this low pass as a Top Gun stunt. Top Gun's air-to-air photography was done using a Lear Jet with top and bottom mounted servo driven cameras to get the "gee whiz" dog fight pictures in that film. It was also used to get some of the air-to-air shots used in common airline TV advertising.
I have participated in a number of such ground shots at KPAE and one done from the Lear Jet. This Lear flight was to film a Boeing airliner take off, landing, and cruise series of video shots for TV advertising. It called for the airliner to be on KPAE 16R’s take off position while the Lear approached the field from the north. The Lear called for the airliner’s throttle up and brake release as it lined up just west of 16R with its speed slow enough to track the airliner’s take off roll through lift off and climb out.
The landing sequence was a bit more interesting. The airliner did a short final approach to 34L with the Lear, tracked in formation through the turn, and descent through touchdown. The Lear was over a taxiway and climbed out to get back in the pattern for its landing. All of this was very precisely preplanned, and to my knowledge met with the airline’s ops requirements. It did require that both pilots had formation flying skills that are not practiced in normal airline flying.
There are two types of pilots that I have encountered over twenty-five years of this process. The airline “line” pilots that fly passenger loaded airplanes every day are highly skilled and very comfortable with the routine flight procedures, but had some trouble with the typical post maintenance test flights that deviated from the normal routines. Many airlines use specific crews for doing post maintenance test flights that are better trained for such activities. Ferry flights and test flights are conducted under rules, but different rules from revenue passenger flights.
It is unfortunate that the subject flight caused concern. It appears that it ran afoul of CP’s internal procedures.
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repariit said in part.....
"The Lear was over a taxiway and climbed out to get back in the pattern for its landing. All of this was very precisely preplanned, and to my knowledge met with the airline’s ops requirements. It did require that both pilots had formation flying skills that are not practiced in normal airline flying."
Aviate opines.....
The Lear pilot would have been Clay Lacy. A legend. If I had the tinyiest fraction of his capabilities I would be a so much better pilot than I am now. Dammit!
"The Lear was over a taxiway and climbed out to get back in the pattern for its landing. All of this was very precisely preplanned, and to my knowledge met with the airline’s ops requirements. It did require that both pilots had formation flying skills that are not practiced in normal airline flying."
Aviate opines.....
The Lear pilot would have been Clay Lacy. A legend. If I had the tinyiest fraction of his capabilities I would be a so much better pilot than I am now. Dammit!
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The Video!!!
Alright ladies & gents, step right up, here is 'the' video you are looking for. Seems a local Seattle news station got a copy & used to report the incident.
Yee Ha!!
http://www.king5.com/video/featured-...ml?nvid=221537
Yee Ha!!
http://www.king5.com/video/featured-...ml?nvid=221537
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StanSayz
Maybe it's a bit early for sarcastic comments about "Air God".
Just a few months ago you were talking about getting a PPL,
and not long before that you were asking if there'd be a problem becoming a commercial pilot
with your criminal record for DUI.
And you got a 20 month ban
instead of the usual 12 months they give in England when drivers are over the limit but not too much over.
Must have been kinda high reading DUI.
Maybe it's a bit early for sarcastic comments about "Air God".
Just a few months ago you were talking about getting a PPL,
and not long before that you were asking if there'd be a problem becoming a commercial pilot
with your criminal record for DUI.
And you got a 20 month ban
instead of the usual 12 months they give in England when drivers are over the limit but not too much over.
Must have been kinda high reading DUI.
Last edited by Bronx; 26th Feb 2008 at 08:57.
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Fly the aircraft according to your flight plan and deal with unplanned events using the training provided and the experience in your background. When you do unplanned things you are asking for it.
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How freaking boring would it be to do that especially for such a momentous occasion?
The aircraft had just been delivered and looks absolutely awesome!
What about the Boeing "Test Pilot" that inverted that 720 ?
The problem with aviation these days is that it's full of too many old farts without a sense of humor.
I am sure that had he gained approval from his company all would be "sweet"
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How freaking boring would it be to do that especially for such a momentous occasion?
The aircraft had just been delivered and looks absolutely awesome!
What about the Boeing "Test Pilot" that inverted that 720 ?
The problem with aviation these days is that it's full of too many old farts without a sense of humor.
I am sure that had he gained approval from his company all would be "sweet"
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Tediek,
The pilot carrying out the FO duties was a senior CX Training Captain. He has been suspended from training duties for 6 months.
For this time he will continue to operate as a Line Captain.
question, the co-pilot has been punished by 6months no training duties. What does this mean?
For this time he will continue to operate as a Line Captain.
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No training duties means no extra pay which he would have received for said duties, I imagine.
Looking at the video, I can't help wondering if perhaps he was a bit lower than he intended? Unless you judge it just right the momentum will drag you down a bit. We'll never know I suppose.
What I find interesting is the opposing responses from pilots on this thread. Either he was an irresponsible rule breaker who got what he deserved or it was a bit naughty but not really that dangerous and he was shafted by the corporate wimps in Cathay.
Looking at the video, I can't help wondering if perhaps he was a bit lower than he intended? Unless you judge it just right the momentum will drag you down a bit. We'll never know I suppose.
What I find interesting is the opposing responses from pilots on this thread. Either he was an irresponsible rule breaker who got what he deserved or it was a bit naughty but not really that dangerous and he was shafted by the corporate wimps in Cathay.
I for one, am truly appalled by the punishment of said crew.
This was not a "stunt". it was a straight and level fly by on a non revenue flight over a field also used to this kind of flying. No preparation also doesn't cut it, since this Captain was not new to the phenomenon of both fly-by's and delivery flights.
I think it is really saddening to see one person who did something he has been doing times before- and probably gave most of his life to a company to end up in that function anyway- being kicked off the cliff like this.
If now nobody sticks up for him it means either:
- Cathay pilots are a bunch of egoistic sons of b!tches, or
- The 49ers method was so bloody effective nobody even dares to speak up.
Whichever it might be, it is a sign of the times I suppose. Airline flying has become more boring than anything imaginable, and airline (middle) managers are getting way to powerful.
This was not a "stunt". it was a straight and level fly by on a non revenue flight over a field also used to this kind of flying. No preparation also doesn't cut it, since this Captain was not new to the phenomenon of both fly-by's and delivery flights.
I think it is really saddening to see one person who did something he has been doing times before- and probably gave most of his life to a company to end up in that function anyway- being kicked off the cliff like this.
If now nobody sticks up for him it means either:
- Cathay pilots are a bunch of egoistic sons of b!tches, or
- The 49ers method was so bloody effective nobody even dares to speak up.
Whichever it might be, it is a sign of the times I suppose. Airline flying has become more boring than anything imaginable, and airline (middle) managers are getting way to powerful.
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It has been widely reported that Mr. Wilkinson was asked to do a flyby before departing for Hong Kong and was also given permission by the tower. Now they want to quibble over some minor speed/altitude variations? 
Post flight champagne toast:
The real story here is about money and a short-sighted, conservative board. Meanwhile, the Cathay marketing gurus original intentions vis-a-vis the dragon paint scheme was nicely kicked up a notch or two by Wilkinson.
I'll bet Sir Dickie would not have allowed his board to fire the man.
Post flight champagne toast:
The real story here is about money and a short-sighted, conservative board. Meanwhile, the Cathay marketing gurus original intentions vis-a-vis the dragon paint scheme was nicely kicked up a notch or two by Wilkinson.
I'll bet Sir Dickie would not have allowed his board to fire the man.
Cool as a moosp
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Harbour Dweller, as you well know there are very many CX Training Captains who would give their left nut to get six months of line flying instead of the continual training rosters.
Where do I sign up for the next delivery flight to act as the co-pilot?
Where do I sign up for the next delivery flight to act as the co-pilot?
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Wallpaper pasted!
Picture now sits on my laptop as the wallpaper; much better than most of my recent choices.
Can JB stand another stupid thread on what you have as your wallpaper pic?
Can JB stand another stupid thread on what you have as your wallpaper pic?
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What happened to the great British press?
They just love distorting aviation stories.
The so-called quality big names are just as bad as the tacky tabloids.
The Daily Telegraph website is claiming
The Times online also claims he buzzed the tower.
"Top Gun Stunt"
It was a flyby!!!
The Daily Telegraph also claims
Is that so? 
I don't know if this is true but according to another site I've read, Cathay Pacific chairman Chris Pratt is in the middle of the back row in this picture - raising his glass in the Post Flight Champagne Toast!
Apparently Cathay Pacific published the picture in their house magazine before all this crap happened.
Shame on Cathay Pacific.
They admit the flyby wasn't dangerous but the pilot still got fired.
Maybe somebody with a grudge saw an opportunity to settle an old score.
They just love distorting aviation stories.
The so-called quality big names are just as bad as the tacky tabloids.
The Daily Telegraph website is claiming
Capt Ian Wilkinson decided to "buzz" the control tower shortly after take-off and swooped the 230-ton Boeing 777-300 ....... Hurtling through the air .......
"Top Gun Stunt"
It was a flyby!!!
The Daily Telegraph also claims
Passengers, including Cathay Pacific's chairman Chris Pratt, were said to be "stunned into silence"
I don't know if this is true but according to another site I've read, Cathay Pacific chairman Chris Pratt is in the middle of the back row in this picture - raising his glass in the Post Flight Champagne Toast!
Apparently Cathay Pacific published the picture in their house magazine before all this crap happened.
Shame on Cathay Pacific.
They admit the flyby wasn't dangerous but the pilot still got fired.
Maybe somebody with a grudge saw an opportunity to settle an old score.
Last edited by Bronx; 26th Feb 2008 at 10:18.
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Cathay Pilot sacked
Capt Wilkinson may have shown poor judgement in conducting an unauthorised low level flypast at Everett, however it seems he really has been made a "scapegoat" in the most extreme manner. Although his actions may have been ill-considered they hardly set any sort of precedent.
As long as aircraft have been flown pilots have "beaten up" airfields. Demotion would seem a more appropriate penalty.
As long as aircraft have been flown pilots have "beaten up" airfields. Demotion would seem a more appropriate penalty.
Not too fast.
Quote from Dream Land:
What about the mention of the Top British pilot fired for performing 320mph etc., etc?
[Unquote]
Having conceded, perhaps (?), that the "not within 500 ft of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure" rule does not apply to operational airfields, Dream Land continues to imply that the American speed limit of 250 kts IAS below 10,000 ft has been exceeded.
Indeed, the King5 TV reporter clearly states (see link, above) that the airplane was being flown at over 300 mph. And we all know about the accuracy of media reporting, don't we?
[Thinks: yesterday evening, British ITV News was still describing an A320 as a "Boeing Triple-Seven" in relation to the Greenpeace protest at LHR that morning, informing us that the protesters had trespassed on "the runway" (sic).]
So let's look at the speed evidence.
1) 300 mph is 260 kts.
2) The aeroplane has slats/flaps extended (see excellent photo, #6 above), probably at the take-off setting.
3) Looking at the same photo, the pitch attitude is plainly over 5 degrees. [Nearer 8 degrees, I'd guess.]
However brilliant a flyer the captain is, Newtonian Physics would prevent him from maintaining level flight at that attitude - and particularly in that configuration - at over 260 kts IAS. So how fast was it? My guess is a figure well below 200 kts.
QED?
What about the mention of the Top British pilot fired for performing 320mph etc., etc?
[Unquote]
Having conceded, perhaps (?), that the "not within 500 ft of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure" rule does not apply to operational airfields, Dream Land continues to imply that the American speed limit of 250 kts IAS below 10,000 ft has been exceeded.
Indeed, the King5 TV reporter clearly states (see link, above) that the airplane was being flown at over 300 mph. And we all know about the accuracy of media reporting, don't we?
[Thinks: yesterday evening, British ITV News was still describing an A320 as a "Boeing Triple-Seven" in relation to the Greenpeace protest at LHR that morning, informing us that the protesters had trespassed on "the runway" (sic).]
So let's look at the speed evidence.
1) 300 mph is 260 kts.
2) The aeroplane has slats/flaps extended (see excellent photo, #6 above), probably at the take-off setting.
3) Looking at the same photo, the pitch attitude is plainly over 5 degrees. [Nearer 8 degrees, I'd guess.]
However brilliant a flyer the captain is, Newtonian Physics would prevent him from maintaining level flight at that attitude - and particularly in that configuration - at over 260 kts IAS. So how fast was it? My guess is a figure well below 200 kts.
QED?
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"The pilot carrying out the FO duties was a senior CX Training Captain. He has been suspended from training duties for 6 months.
For this time he will continue to operate as a Line Captain."
CX can't afford to ground pilots. too many F/Os apparently went to fly some where else.
For this time he will continue to operate as a Line Captain."
CX can't afford to ground pilots. too many F/Os apparently went to fly some where else.
Last edited by ZAGORFLY; 26th Feb 2008 at 14:32.
