BA Pilot Ballot results
Join Date: Jan 2005
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You are in a service industry guys, not a manufacturing one. No service, no industry. A few other now extinct major carriers forgot that.
It might be easier for your gold card pax to re-arrange their work schedule around your possible action but for us cattle up the back end it is more difficult. I am faced with months of planning, pre-booking, paying, connecting flight arranging, car hiring and accomodation booking being blown out of the water. So it is perhaps difficult for me to swallow the 'sorry for the inconvenience' line.
Who was that BALPA guy quoted in the press this morning as saying that his fight is not with the customers? Sorry guv but it looks different from my side of the fence.
I had better start rehearsing how I am going to explain to a wife and two kids that their annual Easter trip has been binned by a group of highly trained, highly skilled and professional people who have got the same gripe about the ability of their managers as every other employee on the planet.
Get real guys, good luck to you and I hope you win your war (I really do, I work for duff managers who mess around with T & C as well) but don't expect me and a whole load of other cattle to be happy.
It might be easier for your gold card pax to re-arrange their work schedule around your possible action but for us cattle up the back end it is more difficult. I am faced with months of planning, pre-booking, paying, connecting flight arranging, car hiring and accomodation booking being blown out of the water. So it is perhaps difficult for me to swallow the 'sorry for the inconvenience' line.
Who was that BALPA guy quoted in the press this morning as saying that his fight is not with the customers? Sorry guv but it looks different from my side of the fence.
I had better start rehearsing how I am going to explain to a wife and two kids that their annual Easter trip has been binned by a group of highly trained, highly skilled and professional people who have got the same gripe about the ability of their managers as every other employee on the planet.
Get real guys, good luck to you and I hope you win your war (I really do, I work for duff managers who mess around with T & C as well) but don't expect me and a whole load of other cattle to be happy.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Vino. if you had a dispute with the company you work for what would you do to resolve the situation? If you have done all the talking and nothing has been resolved what would you do to get the companies attention would you strike? I dont know what you do for a living but if you went on strike it would have ramifications on your companies customers, profit ,etc etc would you consider that to be ok? I think you would justify it cos its about you. Your only taking the stance you are purely for selfish reasons ie. your holiday might be affected, infact if it wasnt for that you probably wouldnt have an opinion on the subject.
Last edited by marlowe; 22nd Feb 2008 at 13:03.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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To Collapso
The Housewife household is in more or less the same predicament as the Collapso household - we are due to fly out to Colorado a week Sunday. A few days ago I was wondering what on earth was going to happen? Were we going to get out there, would we be able to rearrange our holiday dates, accommodation booking, car booking etc. As things stand now I gather our outbound flight should be OK but what will happen on our return flight is anybody's business.
I realise you pilots are in a difficult position, I really do, and I sympathise wholeheartedly with you. I have worked for more than my share of clowns in my time. I also realise that we are complaining about a spoiled holiday while you are fighting for the rest of your careers.
BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.
Be under no illusions here, passengers are tired of BA's incompetence. This latest farrago will be the last straw on the camel's back.
I now face travelling abroad not knowing how or when I will be returning. This will not happen to me again. I will never, ever, book a flight with BA again.
The routes are opening up this year and passengers will be able to chose an airline to fly with. Who on earth would chose to fly BA with its recent history of indistrial disputes?
You won't be worrying about terms and conditions for the rest of your career then, you'll be worrying about whether you will have a job in six or twelve months.
Both the union and the airline have to reach an agreement here, and very soon, if you are to have any hope of retaining your customers.
I realise you pilots are in a difficult position, I really do, and I sympathise wholeheartedly with you. I have worked for more than my share of clowns in my time. I also realise that we are complaining about a spoiled holiday while you are fighting for the rest of your careers.
BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.
Be under no illusions here, passengers are tired of BA's incompetence. This latest farrago will be the last straw on the camel's back.
I now face travelling abroad not knowing how or when I will be returning. This will not happen to me again. I will never, ever, book a flight with BA again.
The routes are opening up this year and passengers will be able to chose an airline to fly with. Who on earth would chose to fly BA with its recent history of indistrial disputes?
You won't be worrying about terms and conditions for the rest of your career then, you'll be worrying about whether you will have a job in six or twelve months.
Both the union and the airline have to reach an agreement here, and very soon, if you are to have any hope of retaining your customers.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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PartickThistleNil and 206_ccjim
Just so you don't have to acquaint yourselves with the facts! It was a complicated issue, but basically the reason the BA Cityflyer RJ pilots aren't on the mainline seniority list, is because the BACX CC wouldn't allow it.
They had perfectly valid reasons.
No conspiracy by BA, or BA BALPA.
Move along now folks.
Just so you don't have to acquaint yourselves with the facts! It was a complicated issue, but basically the reason the BA Cityflyer RJ pilots aren't on the mainline seniority list, is because the BACX CC wouldn't allow it.
They had perfectly valid reasons.
No conspiracy by BA, or BA BALPA.
Move along now folks.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I have had my say and will now leave the arena.
But take a look at history in the UK. British Leyland (if you are old enough), the Miners strike, numerous postal workers disputes the list is endless. What happened to them? No one could be bothered buying British Leyland anymore and they went bust. The mines were closed and miners laid off. Post Offices remain under threat and are being closed down.
Other bodies jumped into their shoes. Japanese and European car manufacturers, foreign coal imports and private courier services.
If your action escalates your competitors will take the food off your plate.
Soap box put away, tin hat on, doors to manual, let return fire commence.....
But take a look at history in the UK. British Leyland (if you are old enough), the Miners strike, numerous postal workers disputes the list is endless. What happened to them? No one could be bothered buying British Leyland anymore and they went bust. The mines were closed and miners laid off. Post Offices remain under threat and are being closed down.
Other bodies jumped into their shoes. Japanese and European car manufacturers, foreign coal imports and private courier services.
If your action escalates your competitors will take the food off your plate.
Soap box put away, tin hat on, doors to manual, let return fire commence.....
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The uncertainty that passengers feel about their travel plans are all part and parcel of the strike vote. What is almost as good as a strike is the threat of one ne ce pas?
Stand firm boys. The world is watching our worldwide collective futures unfold.
For travelers inconvenienced by this I would say sorry, book elsewere. This proffession is being erroded to the point of being pointless. Travellers have been enjoying dirt cheep travel at our collective expense and management has parred the product down to a dim memory of what flying used to be about.
Enough is enough.
Stand firm boys. The world is watching our worldwide collective futures unfold.
For travelers inconvenienced by this I would say sorry, book elsewere. This proffession is being erroded to the point of being pointless. Travellers have been enjoying dirt cheep travel at our collective expense and management has parred the product down to a dim memory of what flying used to be about.
Enough is enough.
Join Date: May 2000
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Originally Posted by Vino Collapso
But take a look at history in the UK. British Leyland (if you are old enough), the Miners strike, numerous postal workers disputes the list is endless. What happened to them? No one could be bothered buying British Leyland anymore and they went bust. The mines were closed and miners laid off. Post Offices remain under threat and are being closed down.
The mines were closed because foreign coal was cheaper and there was little product differentiation.
Post Offices being closed has nothing to do with postal strikes and everything to do with the increase in internet use and the decline in over the counter banking and benefit receipt.
Those aren't very good examples when dealing with a highly profitable, highly differentiated airline.
Dirt cheap travel? Have you seen the price on mainline BA for the short hop say between LHR and GLA when not booked well in advance and or if one wants a flexible ticket? Cheap travel on the whole is the result of competition - same as any other industry. I am happy to say long gone is the monoploy of BA and as a regular pax as well I am quite happy to where possible seek alternative operator and not book BA.
The issues raised and the grievances are no doubt well founded - however as others have said in this forum it is a service industry and us pax have also had enough.
I hope you get what you want - but one wonders if the travelling public will ever return to you.
The issues raised and the grievances are no doubt well founded - however as others have said in this forum it is a service industry and us pax have also had enough.
I hope you get what you want - but one wonders if the travelling public will ever return to you.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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I haven't been here for ages, and came over to Pprune for an entirely different matter, but I'm going to add my two-pennorth here because this niggled me;
My heart bleeds for you. If you feel the need to visit a pilot's forum and weep about your spoilt holiday at the same time as acknowledging that your 2 weeks is as nothing compared to 3000+ people's careers, you ain't going to get much sympathy.
If it's any consolation to you, not only am I going to have to fight the Open Skies issue, but my family holiday (my little one's first holiday) will be spoilt too. Double bummer!
Now. Back to complaining about the idiot helicopter pilot who keeps buzzing my house. My learned BA colleagues here look as if they are able to put across the pilot's view much more eloquently than I can.
I also realise that we are complaining about a spoiled holiday while you are fighting for the rest of your careers.
BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.
BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.
If it's any consolation to you, not only am I going to have to fight the Open Skies issue, but my family holiday (my little one's first holiday) will be spoilt too. Double bummer!
Now. Back to complaining about the idiot helicopter pilot who keeps buzzing my house. My learned BA colleagues here look as if they are able to put across the pilot's view much more eloquently than I can.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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To all you moaning passengers:
Do you really think that your couple of weeks holiday a year is a lot more important than the futures of the BA guys?
They too have families, mortgages, holidays etc that will be affected for a lot longer than your precious 2 week holiday this year.
Have some thought for others.
Do you really think that your couple of weeks holiday a year is a lot more important than the futures of the BA guys?
They too have families, mortgages, holidays etc that will be affected for a lot longer than your precious 2 week holiday this year.
Have some thought for others.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Question for all the holidaymakers who keep pointing out that we are in a service industry what do you do when you have a dispute with your employer? Do you just moan and groan about it around the water cooler or do you do something about it? Lets hear your ideas on how to resolve this matter then, its easy to come on here and complain about your holiday being messed up not so easy to come up with an answer that doesnt include withdrawing your labour.
Join Date: Jan 2005
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I was supposed to be out of here but I will take the bait.
So you all think that if WW and his cronies get what they want you will all be out of work??
Why is that? I bet you will still have a job.
I can see the newspaper headlines tomorrow.......PPrune posting confirms pilots consider themselves more important than their customers.
As a brave man once said "never let a customer get in the way of a good job"
Then if you do not want to hear another side of the story and continue winding yourselves up then keep it in the privacy of the BA forum.
The bottom line is that I hope you win your war. I am old and wrinkly enough to have worked for some complete pl**kers over the years and have every sympathy with your problem, but the route you are following is IMHO going nowhere long term. If you win this battle, and you might although WW will not leave the fight without something in his favour, then the managers will erode your T & C in other ways.
...and I am not here for sympathy just to point out that public opinion will most likely not be behind you. You can say on here that you do not need it, but in the end you need their future business in an ever more competitive world.
Can I leave the arena again now please?
Regards
Vino
(employed in the aviation industry)
Do you really think that your couple of weeks holiday a year is a lot more important than the futures of the BA guys?
Why is that? I bet you will still have a job.
I can see the newspaper headlines tomorrow.......PPrune posting confirms pilots consider themselves more important than their customers.
As a brave man once said "never let a customer get in the way of a good job"
My heart bleeds for you. If you feel the need to visit a pilot's forum and weep about your spoilt holiday at the same time as acknowledging that your 2 weeks is as nothing compared to 3000+ people's careers, you ain't going to get much sympathy.
The bottom line is that I hope you win your war. I am old and wrinkly enough to have worked for some complete pl**kers over the years and have every sympathy with your problem, but the route you are following is IMHO going nowhere long term. If you win this battle, and you might although WW will not leave the fight without something in his favour, then the managers will erode your T & C in other ways.
...and I am not here for sympathy just to point out that public opinion will most likely not be behind you. You can say on here that you do not need it, but in the end you need their future business in an ever more competitive world.
Can I leave the arena again now please?
Regards
Vino
(employed in the aviation industry)
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Whattimedoweland's previous post
this is the best post I have read so far and I thought that after 7 pages of discussion it was worth quoting it again. It's from one of my colleagues. WTDWL I could have written these words myself. Thank you for saving my fingers 
Maybe you should have a go at the BA Management team and not the staff,this time the pilots.
Once you have clammed down (fare paying,wage paying passenger) and we thank you for that,we the staff never forget that?,ask yourself why are so many NON MILITANT workers having so many problems?!!.
Cabin crew last year,now the pilots,Cabin crew again being balloted in about two weeks and then our colleagues on check in!!.
We can't all be wrong!!.
We the staff/employees appreciate you pay our wages and also those very large wages of our management team,who in fact could'nt manage anything.
They are cutting costs everywhere,staff wages,T&C's to make more profit and line their own pockets yet again.However when they reduce the loading of Club washbags and take off the 10 disposable razors we used to provide that affects the service we give to you.
None of us at BA regardless of department,want to affect anyones travel arrangements.No matter when it happens it will affect someone.
I personally apologise if your travel plans are disrupted(thats all I do in the cabin these days is say sorry!!),BA won't apologise,just blame others for their inability to,listen,negotiate and manage.
Don't write to customer relations,they are short of staff also and saying sorry to 1000'S who have not got their bags again.Write to Willie Walsh and tell him what you think of him and his incompetent management team.
I wish you luck in your easter travel plans.Our disputes and problems as staff will affect the rest of our working lifes.
WTDWL.
Once you have clammed down (fare paying,wage paying passenger) and we thank you for that,we the staff never forget that?,ask yourself why are so many NON MILITANT workers having so many problems?!!.
Cabin crew last year,now the pilots,Cabin crew again being balloted in about two weeks and then our colleagues on check in!!.
We can't all be wrong!!.
We the staff/employees appreciate you pay our wages and also those very large wages of our management team,who in fact could'nt manage anything.
They are cutting costs everywhere,staff wages,T&C's to make more profit and line their own pockets yet again.However when they reduce the loading of Club washbags and take off the 10 disposable razors we used to provide that affects the service we give to you.
None of us at BA regardless of department,want to affect anyones travel arrangements.No matter when it happens it will affect someone.
I personally apologise if your travel plans are disrupted(thats all I do in the cabin these days is say sorry!!),BA won't apologise,just blame others for their inability to,listen,negotiate and manage.
Don't write to customer relations,they are short of staff also and saying sorry to 1000'S who have not got their bags again.Write to Willie Walsh and tell him what you think of him and his incompetent management team.
I wish you luck in your easter travel plans.Our disputes and problems as staff will affect the rest of our working lifes.
WTDWL.
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I think it's fair to say that most people, when working in well salaried jobs will be expected to do hours of unpaid overtime however with no guarantee of reward. As a BA pilot the more hours you do the further up the list you go, very few industries give this non meritocratic reward.
I am sure there is a compromise and I hope it will be found because this country is getting a little over the top with striking.
BA is a Public company and it Directors have a right to demand the best possible return for Shareholders. The European Airline Market is going to be a bloodbath and BA's success will depend on Open Skies not being manipulated by an industry desperate to hang on to rewards that are not present in any other professional industry.
I am sure there is a compromise and I hope it will be found because this country is getting a little over the top with striking.
BA is a Public company and it Directors have a right to demand the best possible return for Shareholders. The European Airline Market is going to be a bloodbath and BA's success will depend on Open Skies not being manipulated by an industry desperate to hang on to rewards that are not present in any other professional industry.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Pingo those so called "rewards" were negotiated over many years why would you want to just throw them away with out a fight? I am sure if someone came along and tried to take your rewards of you then you would fight to save them!
Marlowe - you are right. Its not easy and seeking a solution through negotiation is always going to be the final outcome.
We are not all talking about holidaymakers here. Some of us fly for business - pay the big bucks for the "pleasure "of doing so only to have an internal dispute disrupt our business and possibly more.
Luckily most of us will have a choice - and once gone I hope BA enjoy flying half empty planes. The "better the devil you know" approach will be lost. The inept attitude of some towards their customer base somewhat surprises me.
We are not all talking about holidaymakers here. Some of us fly for business - pay the big bucks for the "pleasure "of doing so only to have an internal dispute disrupt our business and possibly more.
Luckily most of us will have a choice - and once gone I hope BA enjoy flying half empty planes. The "better the devil you know" approach will be lost. The inept attitude of some towards their customer base somewhat surprises me.
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Marlowe, terms negotiated under threat are not very popular in todays world.
I do sympathise and that is why I hope there is compromise but this market is a whole lot bigger now and BA does not have the strength it once did, if it doesn't compete it has no divine right.
The US carriers do not have to play by the same rules as the US Government has already proven. BA and it's pilots needs to show flexibility.
I do sympathise and that is why I hope there is compromise but this market is a whole lot bigger now and BA does not have the strength it once did, if it doesn't compete it has no divine right.
The US carriers do not have to play by the same rules as the US Government has already proven. BA and it's pilots needs to show flexibility.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Nivsy nobody wants to strike its the last thing anybody wants including the pilots BUT what do you do to get BA focused and talking again? Unless the threat of withdrawal of labour is there then they are not going to listen .
Join Date: Aug 2002
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blah blah blah blah blah
There are some very patient people on here trying to explain to you poor PAX what this is all about. Some of you are clearly choosing not to listen, you haven't read all 35 or so pages regarding the issues involved, or you are just plain stupid.
Please go to the appropriate forum to whine. You are not wanted here.
There are serious issues at stake, affecting the long term security of BA pilots.
Not one of you have suggested a better alternative to where to go next. Why is that?
That is because BALPA has gone down all the avenues. Then amazingly when the pilots show solidarity WW wants to talk again.
There are some very patient people on here trying to explain to you poor PAX what this is all about. Some of you are clearly choosing not to listen, you haven't read all 35 or so pages regarding the issues involved, or you are just plain stupid.
Please go to the appropriate forum to whine. You are not wanted here.
There are serious issues at stake, affecting the long term security of BA pilots.
Not one of you have suggested a better alternative to where to go next. Why is that?
That is because BALPA has gone down all the avenues. Then amazingly when the pilots show solidarity WW wants to talk again.