Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap
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fatigue and duty roosters
These are rarely prepared by staff who take into consideration the research that shows if you have been working nights the next pattern should be a late shift <after a suitable break of course!> and after this a group of early shifts.
The body is not designed to move from a night shift to an early shift -without giving rise to errors.
Also the error rate increase after the shift is longer than 10 hours.
Some Airlines look down on personnel who regularly report in sick.
Hey-but whats new!
The body is not designed to move from a night shift to an early shift -without giving rise to errors.
Also the error rate increase after the shift is longer than 10 hours.
Some Airlines look down on personnel who regularly report in sick.
Hey-but whats new!
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A humble SLF/PPL here but a very freq. long-haul traveller.
Travelling LH pretty much every week I sympathise with you guys totally.
I have most of my weekends wrecked for trying to re-adjust my rythms and sure as hell wouldn't be doing anything too demanding then.
But at least we got our weekends and we even get to sleep legitimately on the flights too.
I, and I'm certain every single flyer, would be willing to pay the extra bit to make sure people are allowed to perform their work in the responsible manner that they would want. Rather than being dragged around in a semi-defunct state and ordered to work.
OK, so the trouble is that the companies would never advocate for something like this (turkeys, voting for Xmas). But why can't authorities see the point and after all; a blanket imposition wouldn't distort competition and surely in light of all the other costs pilots' rest will be marginal enough NOT to affect the industry as a whole.
And as for the posters who are against 'power naps', using them regularly at work helps to keep me going much better. I'd rather 1 officer was out of service for a short period (not much longer than what some business travellers spend in their toilet visits) and to return in shape for a good 2-3hrs than have a person struggling with fatigue desperately trying to keep their eyelids open.
Sorry for the long ramble
Travelling LH pretty much every week I sympathise with you guys totally.
I have most of my weekends wrecked for trying to re-adjust my rythms and sure as hell wouldn't be doing anything too demanding then.
But at least we got our weekends and we even get to sleep legitimately on the flights too.
I, and I'm certain every single flyer, would be willing to pay the extra bit to make sure people are allowed to perform their work in the responsible manner that they would want. Rather than being dragged around in a semi-defunct state and ordered to work.
OK, so the trouble is that the companies would never advocate for something like this (turkeys, voting for Xmas). But why can't authorities see the point and after all; a blanket imposition wouldn't distort competition and surely in light of all the other costs pilots' rest will be marginal enough NOT to affect the industry as a whole.
And as for the posters who are against 'power naps', using them regularly at work helps to keep me going much better. I'd rather 1 officer was out of service for a short period (not much longer than what some business travellers spend in their toilet visits) and to return in shape for a good 2-3hrs than have a person struggling with fatigue desperately trying to keep their eyelids open.
Sorry for the long ramble
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A11 unfortunately most people are not as enlightened as you! Most passengers want the cheapest seat they can get. Most airlines want to maximise profit. The CAA/ government gets rather a lot of money from airlines. So airlines get to call the shots. Because every aircraft accident that has had fatigue mentioned has also had some other factor, so fatigue is always just an "additional" factor, never the main factor.
There have been various reports done highlighting the problems of fatigue and fatiguing rosters, but the CAA stands by its "CAP371 is the bible, its been fine up until now therefore why change it" enlightened view.
In my opinion, it is unlikely for fatigue to be named as the major cause of an accident, therefore the flight time limitations won't ever be changed.
Most pilots will be extremely tired, if not fatigued, when operating a heavy schedule with numerous changes of report time and all night flights, it has become the norm.
I really don't see anything changing in the forseeable future.
There have been various reports done highlighting the problems of fatigue and fatiguing rosters, but the CAA stands by its "CAP371 is the bible, its been fine up until now therefore why change it" enlightened view.
In my opinion, it is unlikely for fatigue to be named as the major cause of an accident, therefore the flight time limitations won't ever be changed.
Most pilots will be extremely tired, if not fatigued, when operating a heavy schedule with numerous changes of report time and all night flights, it has become the norm.
I really don't see anything changing in the forseeable future.
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You're right A-Girl.
But, mind you, I surely look for cheap deals like everyone else. But just as some costs are built-in and we all pay for today (spares, rotations, maintenance etc.) the same could be done with more generous rest provisions.
If decent rest schedules were built-in; all of us could continue the bargain-hunting, safe in the knowledge that whatever we pay will have adequate provisions for the people whom we entrust our safety in.
The whole point of regulating these provisions, in, is to avoid unfair advantages and ensure a level playing field.
You'd think that all those big blue signs on the motorway warning "tiredness can kill - take a break" wouldn't go unheeded.
Where's common sense when we most need it?
P.S. [Pedantic Mode On] Just which scientific, controlled studies of fatigue and sleep deprivation have they based their document on?? Are they recent? Peer reviewed?[Pedantic Mode Off]
But, mind you, I surely look for cheap deals like everyone else. But just as some costs are built-in and we all pay for today (spares, rotations, maintenance etc.) the same could be done with more generous rest provisions.
If decent rest schedules were built-in; all of us could continue the bargain-hunting, safe in the knowledge that whatever we pay will have adequate provisions for the people whom we entrust our safety in.
The whole point of regulating these provisions, in, is to avoid unfair advantages and ensure a level playing field.
You'd think that all those big blue signs on the motorway warning "tiredness can kill - take a break" wouldn't go unheeded.
Where's common sense when we most need it?
P.S. [Pedantic Mode On] Just which scientific, controlled studies of fatigue and sleep deprivation have they based their document on?? Are they recent? Peer reviewed?[Pedantic Mode Off]
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Fatigue
A11
Try this link http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/...399875A0121FB2
http://propilotnews.com/2008/06/ntsb...poor.html:sad:
Try this link http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/...399875A0121FB2
http://propilotnews.com/2008/06/ntsb...poor.html:sad:
Last edited by Moonraker One; 1st Oct 2008 at 16:59. Reason: More info
Paxing All Over The World
Another SLF speaking. A11, the problem with trying to get EVERYONE to change the rules together - so that everyone benefits is that ... You have to get EVERYONE to change their mind at the same time and they (the carriers) all think that there are no benefits for them!
As Airbus Girl has said, the UK's CAA are run by politicians for the benefit of big business - and almost every other country has the same system! (I say 'almost' as I want to leave a get out for my lawyers
) Until fatigue is shown to be the prime cause of several prangs - nothing will happen. I say that because the only things that changes politicians and big business is money (and hull losses + deaths = £/$)
It is the same reason why the flight time rules will not be applied to corporate pilots. UNLESS a corporate pilot has the ability to nail a 744 - over London - and live to prove that they were fatigued. Sorry if that humour is too dark, but that is what it would take. Even then, the corporate employer's lawyers would 'prove' that the pilot was negligent about not taking themself off duty.
As Airbus Girl has said, the UK's CAA are run by politicians for the benefit of big business - and almost every other country has the same system! (I say 'almost' as I want to leave a get out for my lawyers
) Until fatigue is shown to be the prime cause of several prangs - nothing will happen. I say that because the only things that changes politicians and big business is money (and hull losses + deaths = £/$)It is the same reason why the flight time rules will not be applied to corporate pilots. UNLESS a corporate pilot has the ability to nail a 744 - over London - and live to prove that they were fatigued. Sorry if that humour is too dark, but that is what it would take. Even then, the corporate employer's lawyers would 'prove' that the pilot was negligent about not taking themself off duty.
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It is unrealistic to conclude that by simply adding more "rest" hours between flights that the problem of "fatigue" would be eliminated or even reduced. The company cannot control how those extra hours would be spent by crew members. The company cannot impose a lights- out curfew on a crew member. I expect that most crew members would enjoy the extra hours but would continue to play it close as they do today and that there would be no reduction of the incidents of so-called "fatigue." Self-discipline is what is required.
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"rmiller774: I expect that most crew members would enjoy the extra hours but would continue to play it close as they do today"
The problem is not the pilots not making use of their rest periods, it is the fact that human beings cannot chop and change their sleep patterns from day to day just because their roster says so. Here is an example. If my first flight is an early (going to bed at 7pm to get up at 3am), then I have to suddenly tell my bodyclock to be ready to sleep at 7pm instead of my usual 11pm. I probably won't hit the pillow and sleep at 7pm, not because I am "playing things close (to the limit)" but because I am a human being. I get back from my flight at 3pm, home by 5pm, then the following day I have to do a night flight. So what should I do? In theory I should be getting 8-10 hours a night of sleep. Last night I didn't manage it due to the early start. I probably slept from 10pm until 3am. So already I am in sleep deficit. When I get home from the early duty I am really tired and go to bed at 10pm. I wake up at 8am, because that is when my bodyclock says I should. I have to leave for work at 5pm to drive through rush hour for a 7pm report. So I have to be up at 4pm. So ideally I should now go back to bed and sleep from 8am until 4pm. Perfect!!! Except my body doesn't work like that. It is now awake, yet my roster tells me that what I need to do is go back to sleep for another 8 hours in order to be fully rested for my night flight. Most likely is I manage a couple of hours in the afternoon and go to work, feeling fine until about 1am, when I feel really tired. I then have to fight the urge to sleep until I get back. I land at 7pm, drive through rush hour and go to bed around 9am.
rmiller774 I would welcome your suggestions as to how to cope with changing schedules. I've tried for 10 years and I still find myself tired on night flights and early mornings......
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I have no useful suggestions regarding the schedule you are burdened with. It seems impossible that anyone could successfully perform such a schedule. "Hectic" should be in here somewhere. My simplistic comments shouldn't be and weren't directed toward persons such as yourself. I hope that you can continue to cope somehow and I wish you well. Regards, RMiller
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Where I work (hopefully for not much longer), if we report fatigued when given a change of duty we are met with the stock answer from crewing "but it is legal". I think they are missing the point
FTLs are a limit NOT to be exceeded and not a target to be met!!
We are still stuck in the dark ages, reporting fatigued will still get you a black mark against your name.
FTLs are a limit NOT to be exceeded and not a target to be met!!We are still stuck in the dark ages, reporting fatigued will still get you a black mark against your name.
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similar thinking . . . . . . . . .
FTLs are a limit not to be exceeded, not a target to be met
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Pilots Fatigue & Apnea
Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap 
Story Highlights
(CNN) -- A pilot's sleep disorder and a string of early mornings helped cause the crew of a commuter jet to fall asleep during a flight over Hawaii in 2008, federal investigators reported Monday.
The pilot and co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet failed to respond to calls from air traffic controllers for 18 minutes during the February 2008 flight from Honolulu to Hilo and awoke to find they had overshot their destination by about 30 miles, the National Transportation Safety Board reported. The plane landed safely once the pilots awoke and resumed contact with controllers.
The 53-year-old pilot was later diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea, which can cause daytime sleepiness.
"This condition likely caused him to experience chronic daytime fatigue and contributed to his falling asleep during the incident flight," according to the NTSB's report on the probable cause of the incident.
"In addition, the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 0540 (5:40 a.m.)," the report continued. "This likely caused the pilots to receive less daily sleep than is needed to sustain optimal alertness and resulted in an accumulation of sleep debt and increased levels of daytime fatigue."
Go! is a subsidiary of Phoenix, Arizona-based Mesa Air Group. The company had no immediate response to the findings.
The Hawaii incident and a 2007 runway landing accident in Michigan that investigators blamed on pilot fatigue prompted a call by federal safety experts to scale back the maximum workday allowed for airline pilots and implement other "fatigue management" programs.
Safe and happy flying to all from Sybil, Poly and Manuel!
BF
Story Highlights
- The crew of a commuter jet fell asleep during a flight over Hawaii in 2008
- Federal investigators cite sleep apnea, string of early mornings as causes
- Pilot, co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet awoke to find they overshot destination
- Sleep apnea is a disorder that can cause chronic daytime fatigue
(CNN) -- A pilot's sleep disorder and a string of early mornings helped cause the crew of a commuter jet to fall asleep during a flight over Hawaii in 2008, federal investigators reported Monday.
The pilot and co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet failed to respond to calls from air traffic controllers for 18 minutes during the February 2008 flight from Honolulu to Hilo and awoke to find they had overshot their destination by about 30 miles, the National Transportation Safety Board reported. The plane landed safely once the pilots awoke and resumed contact with controllers.
The 53-year-old pilot was later diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea, which can cause daytime sleepiness.
"This condition likely caused him to experience chronic daytime fatigue and contributed to his falling asleep during the incident flight," according to the NTSB's report on the probable cause of the incident.
"In addition, the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 0540 (5:40 a.m.)," the report continued. "This likely caused the pilots to receive less daily sleep than is needed to sustain optimal alertness and resulted in an accumulation of sleep debt and increased levels of daytime fatigue."
Go! is a subsidiary of Phoenix, Arizona-based Mesa Air Group. The company had no immediate response to the findings.
The Hawaii incident and a 2007 runway landing accident in Michigan that investigators blamed on pilot fatigue prompted a call by federal safety experts to scale back the maximum workday allowed for airline pilots and implement other "fatigue management" programs.
Safe and happy flying to all from Sybil, Poly and Manuel!
BF
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there is a big difference between 'SAFE' and 'UNEVENTFUL . Airline management, bean counters, Nasa Engineers etc, have for years equated an absence of incidents with 'safety' with inevitable disastrous results. what would have been the outcome if there a pitot tube blockage etc and a sudden departure from Auto Pilot into alternate law with 'spurious stall warnings'? with total lack of situational and contextual awareness, what would their first move be? The growing reliance on automated everything (good) coupled with an eager atrophy of basic flying skills is a recipe for disaster. What would have been the investigative path for this fatal crash?
pPrune would have been filled with all kinds of Airbus vs Boeing invective, demands that he should have kicked off the purser at the earliest opportunity and of course relating the infamous 600 mph office. 
whom would even theorize that the pilots were simply asleep, hit a bunch of turbulence, reacted inappropriately due to their disoriented state and had a major unrecoverable upset?
The pilot and co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet failed to respond to calls from air traffic controllers for 18 minutes during the February 2008 flight from Honolulu to Hilo
whom would even theorize that the pilots were simply asleep, hit a bunch of turbulence, reacted inappropriately due to their disoriented state and had a major unrecoverable upset?
Last edited by cessnapuppy; 4th Aug 2009 at 12:20. Reason: grammar (not my Mom's Mom, but spelling,etc.)
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There are strong causal links between sleep apnea and general self-imposed health issues, such as excessive smoking or drinking, and (in particular) obesity. I don't know what the situation was in this particular case, but isn't obesity the kind of thing that gets checked at the mandatory medicals?
See this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...p-fatigue.html
I've asked the mods to merge this with that.
Sleep apnea is a serious problem for some people, often caused by weight issues, but not entirely. It can run in families, which implies that the general structure of the throat/windpipe/uvula can be better or worse for some.
There are night time breathing devices that provide positive air pressure via a nose or face mask to keep your windpipe from closing.
Sleep apnea occurs when the uvula in your throat relaxes and blocks your breathing, which essentially starts to suffocate you until your body reacts by snorting/snoring and partially jarring you awake. Not conducive for a good night's rest.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...p-fatigue.html
I've asked the mods to merge this with that.
Sleep apnea is a serious problem for some people, often caused by weight issues, but not entirely. It can run in families, which implies that the general structure of the throat/windpipe/uvula can be better or worse for some.
There are night time breathing devices that provide positive air pressure via a nose or face mask to keep your windpipe from closing.
Sleep apnea occurs when the uvula in your throat relaxes and blocks your breathing, which essentially starts to suffocate you until your body reacts by snorting/snoring and partially jarring you awake. Not conducive for a good night's rest.
Mods, feel free to delete this post...
Look at a map. The reason this caused serious concern is where are you going to land after you keep flying south of Hilo? How much reserve fuel do they typically carry for short island hops?
flight from Honolulu to Hilo and awoke to find they had overshot their destination by about 30 miles
A-11
As you can see I am a bit late to this thread but you observations are quite good. Irrespective of where one is sitting in the aluminum tube (cabin seat or cockpit) it begs the obvious that one cannot well stay up all night one night and then after only one day be expected awake at 3 a.m. and function well. One of the other problems with regulation is of course the differing opinions that the crewmembers themselves represent. For example, on the EK Melbourne incident there were posters quite adamant about which rest/work schedule works best for them. One poster was advocating a 24 or 36 rest as being best. Frankly for me a 24-28 hour rest when flying east on an internation segment crucifies me. Upon arrival I am going to bed at 3 a.m. body time and then the next morning must be getting up at 2:30 a.m body time to prepare for a 5 a.m. body time departure. For many, a 24 hour rest is onerous at best and leaves (even if one lives like a monk) one pretty K.O.
36 after an eastern ocean crossing works better but is also body time dependent and so a blanket rule would be hard to fit and in some instances, as I am sure you have experienced, can exacerbate the situation. Sadly as you may have noticed, so often when one brings up these issues a stock answer is given by others as to what works for them--great for the 10% who can sleep well at anytime and anywhere.
You might wish to look at some of the research that NASA Ames and Dr. Mark Rosekind have done. Although I strenously disagree with a great deal of it (although from a lay, but operator perspective), it is peer reviewed and leads to quite a bit of the corpus of research that is currently extent.
A-Girl - Excellent summation of what we go through. As you well stated it is not a matter of intent, but rather the simple human limitations of trying to shift a schedule through the clock. As I mentioned to A11, 10% of the population can apparently do it and they, I have thought, are the ones who write the regulations
As you can see I am a bit late to this thread but you observations are quite good. Irrespective of where one is sitting in the aluminum tube (cabin seat or cockpit) it begs the obvious that one cannot well stay up all night one night and then after only one day be expected awake at 3 a.m. and function well. One of the other problems with regulation is of course the differing opinions that the crewmembers themselves represent. For example, on the EK Melbourne incident there were posters quite adamant about which rest/work schedule works best for them. One poster was advocating a 24 or 36 rest as being best. Frankly for me a 24-28 hour rest when flying east on an internation segment crucifies me. Upon arrival I am going to bed at 3 a.m. body time and then the next morning must be getting up at 2:30 a.m body time to prepare for a 5 a.m. body time departure. For many, a 24 hour rest is onerous at best and leaves (even if one lives like a monk) one pretty K.O.
36 after an eastern ocean crossing works better but is also body time dependent and so a blanket rule would be hard to fit and in some instances, as I am sure you have experienced, can exacerbate the situation. Sadly as you may have noticed, so often when one brings up these issues a stock answer is given by others as to what works for them--great for the 10% who can sleep well at anytime and anywhere.
You might wish to look at some of the research that NASA Ames and Dr. Mark Rosekind have done. Although I strenously disagree with a great deal of it (although from a lay, but operator perspective), it is peer reviewed and leads to quite a bit of the corpus of research that is currently extent.
A-Girl - Excellent summation of what we go through. As you well stated it is not a matter of intent, but rather the simple human limitations of trying to shift a schedule through the clock. As I mentioned to A11, 10% of the population can apparently do it and they, I have thought, are the ones who write the regulations
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Profit but at what bigger cost
Coys don't need to make $333 mill. By making $222 mill they can improve quality and safety. Shareholders are just as happy with 6% as 9% but execs get bonuses and that's where they send the hounds of bean counters in to short cut every cent possible...as seem with finance guys.
Unions and Pax should take legal action v Execs / Corp for contributing to accidents with negligent intent and input consumer demands for humane management of aspects discussed...
Used to be a consumer paper in 60's (Which or Choice?) which looked at products...time to start one now off for carriers.
Unions and Pax should take legal action v Execs / Corp for contributing to accidents with negligent intent and input consumer demands for humane management of aspects discussed...
Used to be a consumer paper in 60's (Which or Choice?) which looked at products...time to start one now off for carriers.