Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap
Not that we know what caused this incident but
I find the doctor analogy quite appropriate actually. Many misdiagnoses and dead patients are the result of fatigued doctors. The difference is they kill them off one at a time rather than wholesale. And we are used to hearing about people expiring in hospitals.
I find the doctor analogy quite appropriate actually. Many misdiagnoses and dead patients are the result of fatigued doctors. The difference is they kill them off one at a time rather than wholesale. And we are used to hearing about people expiring in hospitals.
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JAR OPS clearly states that controlled rest is allowed. An extract to that effect was actually removed from our Ops Manual a few years ago but crews must be totally comfortable that the regulator (UK CAA) recommends controlled rest to improve performance if required. It seems to be a bit of a taboo subject but it is normally management that are anti in-flight rest and of course - they never fly the line as much as the rest of us!
I have no hesitation in advising my F/O I may need a 'snooze' and I hope they would speak out if they were needing a 'snooze' as well! Providing it is done properly - it is no threat to safety!
I have no hesitation in advising my F/O I may need a 'snooze' and I hope they would speak out if they were needing a 'snooze' as well! Providing it is done properly - it is no threat to safety!
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Providing it is done properly - it is no threat to safety!
I was tempted many times to agree to a suggestion from an F/O that maybe we could take turns having a 15 min nap but as we were usually both in the same state I could never be sure that the one staying awake would do so..
Some times it got so bad I'd pull out the POH and start a study session on the systems..
With reference to the posting by MungoP:
In many, many years of flying longhaul with a crew of, at least, 3 on the flightdeck, I never had a problem.
On shorthaul flying at night, I have had two quite surprising events.
On the first one, the F/O (as PNF) called "Outer Marker" on finals. The next call should have been "500 feet" but it didn't come for he had "nodded-off"!
The second event was during an SID from a large European airfield at night. The F/O was PF and when the SID called for a 90° left turn and it didn't happen, I quickly discovered that he had nodded-off as well!
I have often wondered if some of our colleagues make as much use of rest time as they should do.
In many, many years of flying longhaul with a crew of, at least, 3 on the flightdeck, I never had a problem.
On shorthaul flying at night, I have had two quite surprising events.
On the first one, the F/O (as PNF) called "Outer Marker" on finals. The next call should have been "500 feet" but it didn't come for he had "nodded-off"!
The second event was during an SID from a large European airfield at night. The F/O was PF and when the SID called for a 90° left turn and it didn't happen, I quickly discovered that he had nodded-off as well!
I have often wondered if some of our colleagues make as much use of rest time as they should do.
I have nodded off when hand flying. I had taken a piston single for a 50 hour check first thing and sat on the near by beach for a few hours while it was done. Late afternoon, flying home with beautifully still air, aeroplane sitting there perfectly trimmed, I may not have been 'asleep' but was certainly not in the cockpit! I recognised my call sign and came to with a start! I think I was probably out of it for 5-10 minutes. I'd been working a fair bit previously and I think sitting in the sun wiped me out. Luckily not literately! I was only at 3000' and the aircraft was quite slippery; imagine waking up in a steep spiral dive with the last few hundred feet winding off the altimeter! Should have recongnised the potential problem before take off, I know, but everyone's perfect with hindsight...
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Autopilots.
Hand-flying is much more tiring than performing the same tasks with A/P engaged. The reasons for installation of A/P or dual A/P's in an aircraft are many-fold, (safety, economy, ride quality to name a few), obvious to professional pilots, and clearly confusing to many others. A/P's are integral but not isolated parts of a much bigger picture of flight automation.
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Is Pilot Fatigue Linked to Toxic Cabin Air? ...see Toxic Cabin Air thread
Just wondered if it's not really fatigue but lack of oxygen and engine-sourced chemicals in the air? Maybe we should link these two threads.
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http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/24/news/story02.html
Off-duty at 1447 the previous day. Back at the office at 0540 according to this report.
Off-duty at 1447 the previous day. Back at the office at 0540 according to this report.
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When I feel I`m tired I just ask my fellow copi if he is OK. If so, I just set an alarm for 20 min and I ask cabin crew to check the cockpit in 20 min too. It works… And I can say it`s much safer to be ready for approach and sleep during cruise than vice versa, isn`t it?
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Flew long-haul under Italian FTL's. A killer. Knackering. A combat zzziz east bound was essential. Trouble was the seats did not recline enough and there was no head rest. An air cushion round your neck helped a little, but you still had to slump down in the seat. That left a gap under your lower back. Wake up brain refeshed but back & neck as stiff as a Sunday-best dog collar. For
U$185m I'd expect better seats for the drivers. Truck drivers who spend 4 hours strapped to them have better saddles. Even economy seats are better than the flight deck. For all the work the various union technical committes and manufacturers have done to improve a/c realibility, why oh why not do such a simple thing to help improve the realibility of the weakest link? I heard from one charter airline employer I had that there were 2 class of seats available. Guess what? We got the cheaper version. No surprise there. Why are there 2 versions? There should be only 1st class for the sharp end jockies.
U$185m I'd expect better seats for the drivers. Truck drivers who spend 4 hours strapped to them have better saddles. Even economy seats are better than the flight deck. For all the work the various union technical committes and manufacturers have done to improve a/c realibility, why oh why not do such a simple thing to help improve the realibility of the weakest link? I heard from one charter airline employer I had that there were 2 class of seats available. Guess what? We got the cheaper version. No surprise there. Why are there 2 versions? There should be only 1st class for the sharp end jockies.
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Crew Boredom not Fatigue?
From the latest reports, seems the crew had plenty of time for adequate rest between duty shifts. Not sure you can really regulate how they spent that time.
I can image a warm sun, good weather, and perfectly controlled temperature would help ease a lot of people into a nap! Always admired how the long haul crews remain alert during those endless hours of flight.
People vary greatly in their susceptibility to a lack of stimulation. Some people drop off to sleep easily, others remain alert and have difficulty going to sleep even when its time to do so.
Seems the challenge is to develop a system that gives the right amount of stimulation to keep you alert but not in itself cause fatigue. This is no easy task.
I also wonder if the military has any helpful tactics to deal with fatigue on their very long range missions.
On a side note, I have seen many doctors go without sleep for 24 hours and still be a much better doctor than some well rested type of lesser ability and skill. Have also seen doctors (usually the assistant surgeon) go to sleep in surgery even standing up due to extreme fatigue. You certainly don't won't that situation in the cockpit.
I can image a warm sun, good weather, and perfectly controlled temperature would help ease a lot of people into a nap! Always admired how the long haul crews remain alert during those endless hours of flight.
People vary greatly in their susceptibility to a lack of stimulation. Some people drop off to sleep easily, others remain alert and have difficulty going to sleep even when its time to do so.
Seems the challenge is to develop a system that gives the right amount of stimulation to keep you alert but not in itself cause fatigue. This is no easy task.
I also wonder if the military has any helpful tactics to deal with fatigue on their very long range missions.
On a side note, I have seen many doctors go without sleep for 24 hours and still be a much better doctor than some well rested type of lesser ability and skill. Have also seen doctors (usually the assistant surgeon) go to sleep in surgery even standing up due to extreme fatigue. You certainly don't won't that situation in the cockpit.
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Maximum duty time
hope it goes with the thread, so what is maximum duty-time ? On our general ops. manual stated 14 hours. But "they" said we can go up to 16 hours and the 14-hours is the max. planned duty-time (?).
anybody can refer me to the regulation (FAR) ?
thanks,
anybody can refer me to the regulation (FAR) ?
thanks,
Thread Starter
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From Aviation International News today
NTSB Tired of FAA’s Inaction on Pilot Fatigue
The NTSB has called the FAA’s response “unacceptable” to four out of six safety recommendations addressing human fatigue and duty-time limitations. The agency issued the report to coincide with National Sleep Awareness Week. “The Safety Board is very concerned about reducing accidents and incidents caused by human fatigue,” NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said, adding that fatigue was a probable cause or contributing factor in “numerous” accidents. The recommendations include requiring training, check flights, ferry and repositioning flights to be included in a pilot’s total revenue time; ensuring that flight and duty time limitations take into consideration research findings in fatigue and sleep issues; reviewing the issue of personnel fatigue in aviation maintenance; and taking into consideration the length of a duty day, starting time and workload when assigning flight crew hours. The FAA has not to date altered a 2001 Federal Register notice that calls for eight hours of rest in any 24-hour period that includes flight time. An FAA spokesman told AIN, “We believe the rules and guidance we have in place are fundamentally sound.”
Report mentioned can be found here
http://ntsb.gov/Recs/mostwanted/avia...humanfatig.htm
NTSB Tired of FAA’s Inaction on Pilot Fatigue
The NTSB has called the FAA’s response “unacceptable” to four out of six safety recommendations addressing human fatigue and duty-time limitations. The agency issued the report to coincide with National Sleep Awareness Week. “The Safety Board is very concerned about reducing accidents and incidents caused by human fatigue,” NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said, adding that fatigue was a probable cause or contributing factor in “numerous” accidents. The recommendations include requiring training, check flights, ferry and repositioning flights to be included in a pilot’s total revenue time; ensuring that flight and duty time limitations take into consideration research findings in fatigue and sleep issues; reviewing the issue of personnel fatigue in aviation maintenance; and taking into consideration the length of a duty day, starting time and workload when assigning flight crew hours. The FAA has not to date altered a 2001 Federal Register notice that calls for eight hours of rest in any 24-hour period that includes flight time. An FAA spokesman told AIN, “We believe the rules and guidance we have in place are fundamentally sound.”
Report mentioned can be found here
http://ntsb.gov/Recs/mostwanted/avia...humanfatig.htm
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Podcast on pilot fatigue
take a look at this one: http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/2...14_21_48-08_00
includes interviews with pilots - apparently the first of a two part series on pilot fatigue.
includes interviews with pilots - apparently the first of a two part series on pilot fatigue.
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IMHO there is possibly another dimension which can be added to the conversation. Primarily if a doctor is feeling fatigued (not tired) he can quite easily step out of the room, possibly mention it to someone, ask to be replaced at that particular moment in time. Once you are airborne, you are committed to completing the task in hand. There is no option to remove yourself from the loop as it were.
The suggestions made about turning the autopilot off to wake up are frankly, well... ludacrous. Aside from the RVSM implications made, correctly, further up the page. People nod off all the time when driving, and if subject to too much fatigue, whenever and wherever they happen to be. To increase your workload at a time when your brain and body are telling you that it can't process much more information is asking for trouble.
With regards to managing your rest, again its a nice idea. But there are always external factors, that could prevent you from getting the required rest. Working a month of late nights and then having to condition your body to wake up at 04:00am for your first early is very hard work. Many people I fly with will readily admit that the amount of rest gained before the first early can be written off as they are pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be knackered in any case. I know on the eve of my first early flights I tend to lie there for 3-4 hours sometimes watching the clock tick round to my report time.
By categorising fatigue as an improper management of ones rest period, which sounds slightly rich to be honest, considering we don't get a break every 30 mins, the situation certainly won't get any better.
Rgds.
T
The suggestions made about turning the autopilot off to wake up are frankly, well... ludacrous. Aside from the RVSM implications made, correctly, further up the page. People nod off all the time when driving, and if subject to too much fatigue, whenever and wherever they happen to be. To increase your workload at a time when your brain and body are telling you that it can't process much more information is asking for trouble.
With regards to managing your rest, again its a nice idea. But there are always external factors, that could prevent you from getting the required rest. Working a month of late nights and then having to condition your body to wake up at 04:00am for your first early is very hard work. Many people I fly with will readily admit that the amount of rest gained before the first early can be written off as they are pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be knackered in any case. I know on the eve of my first early flights I tend to lie there for 3-4 hours sometimes watching the clock tick round to my report time.
By categorising fatigue as an improper management of ones rest period, which sounds slightly rich to be honest, considering we don't get a break every 30 mins, the situation certainly won't get any better.
Rgds.
T
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FAA “We believe the rules and guidance we have in place are fundamentally sound.”
Something that the FAA and UK CAA have in common is their astounding arrogance when replying to criticism... notable when having been included in some accident report as having inadequate training stds or whatever and responding with .. "we don't accept the findings etc.."
Problem will remain as long as the regulating authorities maintain a too close relationship with the majors and identify too closely with their interests.. (old boy)
Something that the FAA and UK CAA have in common is their astounding arrogance when replying to criticism... notable when having been included in some accident report as having inadequate training stds or whatever and responding with .. "we don't accept the findings etc.."
Problem will remain as long as the regulating authorities maintain a too close relationship with the majors and identify too closely with their interests.. (old boy)