Swiss Avro Greaser in LCY
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Atreyu
I think the discomfort comes from the 'ball' rather than the bank!
It just comes down to personal preference. No more, no less. Each has different advantages.
I have tried both techniques in every conceivable airframe configuration (even rotary wing) I just prefer crab, it always works for me.
But I'm happy that 'cross controlled' does it for others!
(Atreyu, thanks for the pm)
I think the discomfort comes from the 'ball' rather than the bank!
It just comes down to personal preference. No more, no less. Each has different advantages.
I have tried both techniques in every conceivable airframe configuration (even rotary wing) I just prefer crab, it always works for me.
But I'm happy that 'cross controlled' does it for others!
(Atreyu, thanks for the pm)
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I was taught wing down by the Canadians on the Harvard. Then, when returned to the RAF and flying Vampires, the old CFS technique of kick off drift was insisted on. When, subsequently, I became a tp and was involved in extensive landing trials on a number of types large and small, I tried both techniques for comparative handling assessments. The result was conclusive, wing down has it everytime unless the aircraft geometry precludes; and there are precious few that do. (B52, and that has a crabbing gear) and most underslung 4 jets. Opponents are sure that wing tips are vulnerable. But, if you measure the angle between the dangled gear and the adjacent wing tip, it is far, far greater than any sideslip bank angle you can reasonably achieve. Advantages are that it is much easier to judge the landing and, very importantly in a strong X wind, you touch down with the control deflections required for the roll-out already applied and not a blur of arms and leg as with the kick off drift. This was particularly useful on a well known WW2 bomber which could be a pig in a X wind, but 3 pointed with wing down, was pussy cat. Furthermore, got the PC9 prototype up to 35 kts with no trouble at all. I'm sold on it and do tend to preach a bit. As a flying instructor, I found it much easier to teach too.
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I was taught wing down by the Canadians on the Harvard. Then, when returned to the RAF and flying Vampires, the old CFS technique of kick off drift was insisted on. When, subsequently, I became a tp and was involved in extensive landing trials on a number of types large and small, I tried both techniques for comparative handling assessments. The result was conclusive, wing down has it everytime unless the aircraft geometry precludes; and there are precious few that do. (B52, and that has a crabbing gear) and most underslung 4 jets. Opponents are sure that wing tips are vulnerable. But, if you measure the angle between the dangled gear and the adjacent wing tip, it is far, far greater than any sideslip bank angle you can reasonably achieve. Advantages are that it is much easier to judge the landing and, very importantly in a strong X wind, you touch down with the control deflections required for the roll-out already applied and not a blur of arms and leg as with the kick off drift. This was particularly useful on a well known WW2 bomber which could be a pig in a X wind, but 3 pointed with wing down, was pussy cat. Furthermore, got the PC9 prototype up to 35 kts with no trouble at all. I'm sold on it and do tend to preach a bit. As a flying instructor, I found it much easier to teach too.
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Adopted the slip method early in light singles training because you could hold the attitude, with trims for the usual wind gradient, until the wheels hit,
at which time the fuselage was pointed straight down the rwy and all you have to do is roll out with the upwind aileron left up so that side doesn't try to fly again. A bonus with fixed gear is that the lateral load is taken
by the transverse gear strut in tension, which lessens chance of having to fill out a whole pile of forms after gear collapse if you bang it down.
Win win.
at which time the fuselage was pointed straight down the rwy and all you have to do is roll out with the upwind aileron left up so that side doesn't try to fly again. A bonus with fixed gear is that the lateral load is taken
by the transverse gear strut in tension, which lessens chance of having to fill out a whole pile of forms after gear collapse if you bang it down.
Win win.
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Having got a few hours in a couple of Lockheed's finest (L-1011 & C130) I'm sold on the wing down technique. I believe their U/C doesn't like side loads.
CFS seemed to be still more crab + kick focussed but all my students got to see both.
However, looking at the video the old adage "every landing you walk away from is a good one" spings to mind
CFS seemed to be still more crab + kick focussed but all my students got to see both.
However, looking at the video the old adage "every landing you walk away from is a good one" spings to mind
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However, looking at the video the old adage "every landing you walk away from is a good one" spings to mind
Farfompuken you are plain wrong. With a good landing you can use the aeroplane again.
Farfompuken you are plain wrong. With a good landing you can use the aeroplane again.
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Tandemrotor, Yeah I do see your point but I would also respectfully argue at 5 deg the ball wouldn't be too far out! 
I'm sure I speak for all when i say SLF's comfort takes 2nd place to safety so I guess it's whatever method you feel most comfortable with!
:P
And no problem
Atreyu
I'm sure I speak for all when i say SLF's comfort takes 2nd place to safety so I guess it's whatever method you feel most comfortable with!
:PAnd no problem
Atreyu
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[QUOTE][
Tandemrotor, Yeah I do see your point but I would also respectfully argue at 5 deg the ball wouldn't be too far out!
I'm sure I speak for all when i say SLF's comfort takes 2nd place to safety so I guess it's whatever method you feel most comfortable with! :P
And no problem
Atreyu
/QUOTE]
Personlly speaking, I'd rather get down on terra firma vaguely safely in those conditions than be complaining about my bowels appearing in my chest. A "safe" landing, in my book, means your internal organs return to their usual place whereas a "bad one" can tend to have othe complications....
Bu what do I know, I just pay for the privilege of these sorts of things
Tandemrotor, Yeah I do see your point but I would also respectfully argue at 5 deg the ball wouldn't be too far out!
I'm sure I speak for all when i say SLF's comfort takes 2nd place to safety so I guess it's whatever method you feel most comfortable with!
:PAnd no problem
Atreyu
/QUOTE]
Personlly speaking, I'd rather get down on terra firma vaguely safely in those conditions than be complaining about my bowels appearing in my chest. A "safe" landing, in my book, means your internal organs return to their usual place whereas a "bad one" can tend to have othe complications....
Bu what do I know, I just pay for the privilege of these sorts of things
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Not if the speed is nailed and you are either on the glide, or just under it (2 reds and a pink). This gives you room in the touchdown zone for a nice round out.
The only problem is the last 500' with windshear, but normally this calms to mild turbulence by 30'. Gusts then have to be countered or the aircraft may weather-cock when on the ground.
It really isn't as bad as the stories you hear, it just takes bigger balls than any other normal approach.
Rock on LCY pilots!!!!!!
The only problem is the last 500' with windshear, but normally this calms to mild turbulence by 30'. Gusts then have to be countered or the aircraft may weather-cock when on the ground.
It really isn't as bad as the stories you hear, it just takes bigger balls than any other normal approach.
Rock on LCY pilots!!!!!!
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Best post I've read in months. Thanks for sharing your experience. I am much more comfortable with the wing down technique for the reasons you cite. In a gusty crosswind, it's easier for me to gauge the effects of my aileron and rudder inputs in response to changes in the wind. Trying to do that while kicking out a crab and flaring adds one more variable to compensate for when a gust catches the tail or upwind wing.
Since I don't see myself flying a 747 or A340 in this millenia, perhaps continuing to use the wing down technique will keep me from bending any airplanes. I know at least one crusty backcountry pilot who vehemently disagrees with my technique, so your post will provide me some fodder for hangar flying debates.
Dave
Since I don't see myself flying a 747 or A340 in this millenia, perhaps continuing to use the wing down technique will keep me from bending any airplanes. I know at least one crusty backcountry pilot who vehemently disagrees with my technique, so your post will provide me some fodder for hangar flying debates.
Dave
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Good to see the blame culture still alive and well in aviation
We can all pass criticism, indeed I have myself, but I don't think prosecution is the answer. Besides, if the aeroplane isn't broken, and no-one died or was injured, what can you prosecute him for? A heavy landing? Yes it was bad but jesus if we all went to court for a heavy landing from time to time imagine the state the British judicary system would be in then! erm... actually, nevermind
But I suppose there are heavy landings, and then HEAVY landings Or would this swissair clip be defined as more of a 'light crash'? I can see The Sun's headline now...
"Hero pilot saves 110 lives at london city airport"
Sorry cynical old me again....
Atreyu
We can all pass criticism, indeed I have myself, but I don't think prosecution is the answer. Besides, if the aeroplane isn't broken, and no-one died or was injured, what can you prosecute him for? A heavy landing? Yes it was bad but jesus if we all went to court for a heavy landing from time to time imagine the state the British judicary system would be in then! erm... actually, nevermind
But I suppose there are heavy landings, and then HEAVY landings
Or would this swissair clip be defined as more of a 'light crash'? I can see The Sun's headline now..."Hero pilot saves 110 lives at london city airport"
Sorry cynical old me again....
Atreyu
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Skydrol Leak,
Easy Tiger. Court is a bit harsh, anyway as Atreyu has pointed out, they are far too busy keeping criminals on the streets
Next you will be saying that the local kebab shop should be fined when I wake up with a hangover and the trots.
You pay your money, you take your chances. The fact is that, in my humble opinion, Carlsberg don't make pilots, but if they did, they probably would be LCY pilots.
Maybe Tea and Biscuits for the Swiss pilot, followed a few remedial flights with the Chief Pilot and a visit to his local flying school to relearn xwind techniques. Oh! and while he was there, a brush up in how to get off the bloody runway a bit quicker so that we can get on with it...
I bet the worst thing that probably happened on that landing, apart from a few loose fillings that is, was a small Skydrol Leak, Skydrol Leak.
PAPI
Easy Tiger. Court is a bit harsh, anyway as Atreyu has pointed out, they are far too busy keeping criminals on the streets
Next you will be saying that the local kebab shop should be fined when I wake up with a hangover and the trots.
You pay your money, you take your chances. The fact is that, in my humble opinion, Carlsberg don't make pilots, but if they did, they probably would be LCY pilots.
Maybe Tea and Biscuits for the Swiss pilot, followed a few remedial flights with the Chief Pilot and a visit to his local flying school to relearn xwind techniques. Oh! and while he was there, a brush up in how to get off the bloody runway a bit quicker so that we can get on with it...
I bet the worst thing that probably happened on that landing, apart from a few loose fillings that is, was a small Skydrol Leak, Skydrol Leak.
PAPI
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PAPI-74, Yellow or Green leak? (and yes smart-alecs I know skydrol is purple, well the hydraulic fluid is, maybe the pprune skydrol is purple too? Could his name be Ronnie, of Vimto fame? questions, questions...) And I agree with PAPI-74's sentiments, LCY pilots should be given lots of extra pay for flying in and out of there
Atreyu
(and yes smart-alecs I know skydrol is purple, well the hydraulic fluid is, maybe the pprune skydrol is purple too? Could his name be Ronnie, of Vimto fame? questions, questions...) And I agree with PAPI-74's sentiments, LCY pilots should be given lots of extra pay for flying in and out of there Atreyu
