BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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Human Factor, I think this question has been answered. OS do not want to undermine the meritocratic culture they are trying to establish. Opening up OS to the mainline seniority list would do this.
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Tell us Pacamack, what's your stake in this whole shebang? You have only recently registered and the only thread you've posted on in this one. Why are you so interested in whats going on in OS? Have you applied to OS, or perhaps you work for the parent?
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Packamack, I'd wager it's got nothing whatsoever to do with protecting the meritocratic culture they're trying to establish (if, by meritocratic, you mean selected for promotion on how far you're prepared to toe the management line). To my mind the only answer, and the only reason they're prepared to let an expensive and damaging strike happen is that there are far, far greater savings to be made off the mainline in the future if Schedule K isn't re-written.
OS do not want to undermine the meritocratic culture they are trying to establish. Opening up OS to the mainline seniority list would do this.
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Just to be absolutely clear - being on the BA MSL would not stop OS being meritocratic within itself and need not incur any additional costs or complexity because Balpa is willing to negotiate those away.
Balpa is willing to ensure there are NO costs involved in putting these guys on the MSL but BA will not negotiate
Why?
The only believable answer is because they want to use OS to under4mine Mainline Terms etc over the next decade.
BA managers still try to persuade us that their guarantees can be trusted when most of us have first hand experience of one or more BA managers not being trustworthy and BA as a whole has shown itself willing & able to ignore such previously given guarantees.
Balpa is willing to ensure there are NO costs involved in putting these guys on the MSL but BA will not negotiate
Why?
The only believable answer is because they want to use OS to under4mine Mainline Terms etc over the next decade.
BA managers still try to persuade us that their guarantees can be trusted when most of us have first hand experience of one or more BA managers not being trustworthy and BA as a whole has shown itself willing & able to ignore such previously given guarantees.
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Everyone here seems to be concerned about OS and seem to be forgetting that Willie has already got a wedge into mainlines T&Cs. It’s called BA Cityflyer.
These guys operate in and out of London and are increasingly taking more and more of LHR’s routes.
Cityflyer pilots earn BA loads of readies and to the best of my knowledge have never been on BA’s seniority list. BALPA, it seems, are blissfully unaware or unconcerned.
Evidence http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=435
Perhaps BALPA are only worried when ‘Long Haul’ is affected.
Forever cynical
These guys operate in and out of London and are increasingly taking more and more of LHR’s routes.
Cityflyer pilots earn BA loads of readies and to the best of my knowledge have never been on BA’s seniority list. BALPA, it seems, are blissfully unaware or unconcerned.
Evidence http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=435
Perhaps BALPA are only worried when ‘Long Haul’ is affected.
Forever cynical
Last edited by Jaq; 10th Feb 2008 at 20:10. Reason: Update
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Have you read the full thread Jaq? BALPA are well aware of the existence of Cityflyer, and it's existence is permitted by a clause in the Scope agreement. If you want to know more then read the previous 33 or so pages, no point in us all repeating ourselves. In fact if you'd even read the last 10 pages you'd see a robust debate about Cityflyer Mk2.
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Shouldn't this thread rightly be moved to the "Airline Specific Private Forums"?
LHR747,
If BALPA is prepared to concede to any terms and conditions and costs for Open Skies, why will BA not permit OS pilots to join the mainline seniority list?
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Hand Solo, no I didn't read all previous pages. I'm still on page 1522 of War and Peace. I did start to read them but gave up. I will try again.
If I'm informed correctly I think the scope clause covers aircraft of LESS than 100 seats, or was that mentioned earlier too.
I still think BALPA are only shouting because OS threatens LH.
Now I'll shut up 'till I read earlier posts.
and it's existence is permitted by a clause in the Scope agreement
I still think BALPA are only shouting because OS threatens LH.
Now I'll shut up 'till I read earlier posts.
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You are incorrectly informed about Scope.
Perhaps you are correct about BALPA.
My view is better late than never. No sense in repeating past mistakes. It's line in the sand time.
Perhaps you are correct about BALPA.
My view is better late than never. No sense in repeating past mistakes. It's line in the sand time.
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Few questions concerning OS/Strike:
If the disagreement is about schedule K and not OS specifically, then why the recruitment ban by IFALPA?
If OS struggles to recruit sufficient numbers for the 1st aircraft, will
mainline pilots crew the first flights?
How much does a new joiner earn at BA mainline? SFO joining
OS will attract a financial package circ 62K pA. Are we talking just
money when discussing T&C?
How can OS compete and undercut BA mainline if its aircraft never
touch UK soil under existing agreements?
When is the strike ballot result to be made public and when are the
first strike dates?
If the disagreement is about schedule K and not OS specifically, then why the recruitment ban by IFALPA?
If OS struggles to recruit sufficient numbers for the 1st aircraft, will
mainline pilots crew the first flights?
How much does a new joiner earn at BA mainline? SFO joining
OS will attract a financial package circ 62K pA. Are we talking just
money when discussing T&C?
How can OS compete and undercut BA mainline if its aircraft never
touch UK soil under existing agreements?
When is the strike ballot result to be made public and when are the
first strike dates?
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To try to summarise the last 33 pages:
OS contravenes the intent of Schedule K by employing non-BA pilots to fly BA work, albeit out of Europe from which BA could not operate when Schedule K was last agreed.
Research the pay yourself, but BA DEPs are slightly better off than that.
OS would take transfer traffic from BA mainline immediately. More importantly, it could draw investment (new aircraft) away from BA mainline and let LHR wither on the vine until expansion there is finally approved in about 2020. Once established as a Trojan horse, OS would be able to act as a strike-buster at LHR on the command of the BA board (current agreements would be swept aside, certainly in the event of a future strike by mainline). Once OS were established, BALPA would be emasculated.
The strike ballot closes on 20 Feb, results announced very shortly thereafter, I should think. Earliest date for industrial action complying with the law is 28 Feb, latest is 19/20 Mar.
OS contravenes the intent of Schedule K by employing non-BA pilots to fly BA work, albeit out of Europe from which BA could not operate when Schedule K was last agreed.
Research the pay yourself, but BA DEPs are slightly better off than that.
OS would take transfer traffic from BA mainline immediately. More importantly, it could draw investment (new aircraft) away from BA mainline and let LHR wither on the vine until expansion there is finally approved in about 2020. Once established as a Trojan horse, OS would be able to act as a strike-buster at LHR on the command of the BA board (current agreements would be swept aside, certainly in the event of a future strike by mainline). Once OS were established, BALPA would be emasculated.
The strike ballot closes on 20 Feb, results announced very shortly thereafter, I should think. Earliest date for industrial action complying with the law is 28 Feb, latest is 19/20 Mar.
It will happen sometime- how to respond?
As I've now retired from the Aviation sector, I feel free to comment. The whole set of preserved T & C in the sector, from ATCOs thru to Pilots will be successfully attacked sometime soon by someone. (e.g. Printers, Dockers, Miners etc). Tactically, should our TUs focus on "preserving" what we've got, or working with reasonably sensible employers to develop a more realistic model for to-morrow?
A very difficult decision that requires thought, not knee-jerk reactions.
A very difficult decision that requires thought, not knee-jerk reactions.
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Ancient Observer,
tomorrow gets my vote any day!!!!
Tactically, should our TUs focus on "preserving" what we've got, or working with reasonably sensible employers to develop a more realistic model for to-morrow?
tomorrow gets my vote any day!!!!
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Brakes-Beer has hit the point.
Gentlemen, this is a fight that you will not win. Your union,.... the one that treated the Dan Air pilots at EOG so badly will not serve you well. This whole issue is nothing more than nature taking its course. The market always wins as I reminded you earlier. It is almost a pleasure to watch the inevitable, the squealing and moaning. Get the guys who signed on as unemployed B74 drivers on retirement pensions from BA to come over and assist ! Schadenfreude... no.
Koi.
Gentlemen, this is a fight that you will not win. Your union,.... the one that treated the Dan Air pilots at EOG so badly will not serve you well. This whole issue is nothing more than nature taking its course. The market always wins as I reminded you earlier. It is almost a pleasure to watch the inevitable, the squealing and moaning. Get the guys who signed on as unemployed B74 drivers on retirement pensions from BA to come over and assist ! Schadenfreude... no.
Koi.
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Your union,.... the one that treated the Dan Air pilots at EOG so badly
t.I didn't see anyone shouting 'strike' then
I have nothing against BA pilots protecting what they have - we would all do the same.......but BALPA......that's another story.
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I think people saying this is a battle we can't win is a little wide of the mark. If you're not involved in this process, which is a nasty one and will mean huge sacrifices on everyones part, please have the dignity to keep your views balanced and reasonable.
It is a battle we MUST win and indeed we will. Time will tell, but if you were involved and had seen the arguments for and against, I guarantee you would be doing the same.
It is a battle we MUST win and indeed we will. Time will tell, but if you were involved and had seen the arguments for and against, I guarantee you would be doing the same.
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As someone who's not BA, pilot or management, I feel the tide is turning. The certainty of victory is no longer there.
(Go BALPA/BA Pilots - Boys in green are behind you (!))