BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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There are only going to be secondments if the PL pilots are not on the seniority list, otherwise it's transparent commands on seniority (probably about 4-5 years) as opposed to an opaque promotion process on 'merit'. Given that the GSS option in BA is so unpopular do you really think there would be many takers for PL within mainline?
Whilst were at it lets nail the myth that Go was sold off cheaply. BA sold it for many times the value they invested in it. That kind of return would be considered a success in any business. So what if the next owners sold it on again a few years later for more cash? There's nothing wrong with taking the money and running. The only people who slate the sale of Go are those who want to bash BA for their own personal reasons. There was no criticism of the deal from the money men.
Whilst were at it lets nail the myth that Go was sold off cheaply. BA sold it for many times the value they invested in it. That kind of return would be considered a success in any business. So what if the next owners sold it on again a few years later for more cash? There's nothing wrong with taking the money and running. The only people who slate the sale of Go are those who want to bash BA for their own personal reasons. There was no criticism of the deal from the money men.
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Further to biddedout post yesterday I would agree that unless BA place Non Cloned BA management in Openskies it is doomed to failure. I have to also say that apples to other staffing positions as well. My belief is that the only way BA can really succeed with Openskies is for the new venture not to have "the baggage" of BA working practices attached to it.
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Not wishing to upset anyone here,but on returning to work at "Big Airways" yesterday,i was told that there is a strong possibility that when the two 757s allocated to Open Skies are painted,they will emerge with VP- registrations,(i think thats Bermuda?). Apparently this info is eminating from the "Aircraft Disposal" team within Engineering and is based on the fact that on the paperwork side of things,operating costs are that much lower than keeping the a/c on the British register. As for these aircraft,when Open Skies is up and running,they apparently will only visit LHR about once every 18/24 months for a C check....All other checks will be done in Antwerp.......Can anyone confirm these rumours??
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The guys who fix BA's machines will be curious about their work going to the continent. If it is the case it will be another group interested in this venture and maybe more trouble for BA.
To all of you out there who find it difficult to understand BALPA and its members issue. We are trying to protect our jobs pure and simple. We are trying to protect the jobs of future pilots at BA and ALL OTHER CARRIERS in the UK that recognise BALPA (or not). If BA get their way on this then it will be trouble for everyone. This fight is for all BALPA members whether you work for BA or not.
Rant over.
To all of you out there who find it difficult to understand BALPA and its members issue. We are trying to protect our jobs pure and simple. We are trying to protect the jobs of future pilots at BA and ALL OTHER CARRIERS in the UK that recognise BALPA (or not). If BA get their way on this then it will be trouble for everyone. This fight is for all BALPA members whether you work for BA or not.
Rant over.
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There are only going to be secondments if the PL pilots are not on the seniority list
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Jack - don't let the secondment issue sidetrack you. If BALPA win there will be no 'secondments' as such - people will simply be able to bid for PL positions (opening up jobs in BA Mainline). If BA win, their position is that some secondments may be possible a la GSS with all the problems that brings.
However - as far as I read it, this is NOT BALPA's main concern. The numbers of mainline pilots who would want to bid for the far worse PL T&C's is probably very low. BALPA's worry is PL being used as a trojan horse to drive down the T&C's of other BA (& therefore UK) pilots.
If the PL pilots are put on the seniority list it would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to them - other than the ability to join BA mainline after 4/5 years (if they want) and promotion opportunities not being based on how well you get on with your boss.
I am really struggling to see the problems DEP's have with BALPA's stance. In the next 5 years BA will need 'x' new pilots (for mainline and PL). This will be the same whatever the outcome of the talks. There may be slightly fewer DEC's as a result of SFO's from mainline moving to PL for a command - but is the loss of maybe 10 DEC's really worth risking the T&C's of EVERY UK pilot?
However - as far as I read it, this is NOT BALPA's main concern. The numbers of mainline pilots who would want to bid for the far worse PL T&C's is probably very low. BALPA's worry is PL being used as a trojan horse to drive down the T&C's of other BA (& therefore UK) pilots.
If the PL pilots are put on the seniority list it would make NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL to them - other than the ability to join BA mainline after 4/5 years (if they want) and promotion opportunities not being based on how well you get on with your boss.
I am really struggling to see the problems DEP's have with BALPA's stance. In the next 5 years BA will need 'x' new pilots (for mainline and PL). This will be the same whatever the outcome of the talks. There may be slightly fewer DEC's as a result of SFO's from mainline moving to PL for a command - but is the loss of maybe 10 DEC's really worth risking the T&C's of EVERY UK pilot?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I understand that BA pilots (FOs presumably) want to be able to bid to take commands at PL(seniority list or no).
All PL commands will be available, subject to seniority, to any pilot on the seniority list, irrespective of how they got there. If it is not popular, it will be extremely junior, and I don't feel it will be especially popular. If it is really not popular, there will be direct entry commands. Everyone wins.
If you are not on the seniority list, commands will be available to mainline BA guys who want them and you lose.
That said, all of the above is a distraction. The big picture is about an attempt to reduce mainline terms and conditions.
It's not rocket science, really.
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As I said earlier...
Some folks seem to believe we (BACC/BALPA) are trying to prevent you from joining BA/OpenLies by keeping the work 'in house.' This is very much removed from the truth.
The truth is that BA needs ~200 pilots in the next 18months just for mainline. The work generated by OpenLIes will increase that number, and may be a significant increase. All of those pilots will have to come from outside BA. We do not have enough pilots at the moment.
There may well be a few, (and I would hazard a guess at less than a couple of dozen), pilots (FOs & Captains) bidding to move from Mainline to OpenLies because the novelty/lifestyle of living & working in Europe will suit them. I think the number will be very limited because the T&Cs compared to Mainline are not that attractive. Indeed, if we do have a few bidding from Mainline to OpenLies then those now vacant Mainline positions will have to be recruited ex-BA.
It will be no different to pilots joining now. Some go to LGW & some to LHR. They are all on the Master Seniority List, and after their 5 year engagement freeze is up they have the right, seniority dependant, to move to any other fleet or base. We want OpenSkies to be the same.
For the avoidance of doubt LHR & LGW have different T&Cs. Same MSL.
...by siphoning off work from Mainline to expand OpenLies ala Jetstar V Qantas. That is the core issue at stake here.
Some folks seem to believe we (BACC/BALPA) are trying to prevent you from joining BA/OpenLies by keeping the work 'in house.' This is very much removed from the truth.
The truth is that BA needs ~200 pilots in the next 18months just for mainline. The work generated by OpenLIes will increase that number, and may be a significant increase. All of those pilots will have to come from outside BA. We do not have enough pilots at the moment.
There may well be a few, (and I would hazard a guess at less than a couple of dozen), pilots (FOs & Captains) bidding to move from Mainline to OpenLies because the novelty/lifestyle of living & working in Europe will suit them. I think the number will be very limited because the T&Cs compared to Mainline are not that attractive. Indeed, if we do have a few bidding from Mainline to OpenLies then those now vacant Mainline positions will have to be recruited ex-BA.
It will be no different to pilots joining now. Some go to LGW & some to LHR. They are all on the Master Seniority List, and after their 5 year engagement freeze is up they have the right, seniority dependant, to move to any other fleet or base. We want OpenSkies to be the same.
For the avoidance of doubt LHR & LGW have different T&Cs. Same MSL.
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To those of you who think balpa are trying to shaft you on behalf of ba guys think again.The only shafting will come from the PL team who should be regarded as Mike Opikey in trg
If you join OS as an f/o with no senority list you wont get promoted. Its cheaper to keep bringing in guys. There is a glut of 75/6 people around.
You will be ina merituous sychophantic enviroment and they will do with you as they please. One DEC equals one course. Am f/o promotion means two courses. One upgrade and one hire.
As an ex charter captain joining as DEC you will probably find yourself being neutered at every turn. They want yes men and cheaply.
Just as the cadets at ryr are a self perpetuating cancer so will PL be. Selfish short sighted transient people who dont care what it takes to fuel their egos.
Pucker up boys its balpas way or the chocolate highway
If you join OS as an f/o with no senority list you wont get promoted. Its cheaper to keep bringing in guys. There is a glut of 75/6 people around.
You will be ina merituous sychophantic enviroment and they will do with you as they please. One DEC equals one course. Am f/o promotion means two courses. One upgrade and one hire.
As an ex charter captain joining as DEC you will probably find yourself being neutered at every turn. They want yes men and cheaply.
Just as the cadets at ryr are a self perpetuating cancer so will PL be. Selfish short sighted transient people who dont care what it takes to fuel their egos.
Pucker up boys its balpas way or the chocolate highway
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All PL commands will be available, subject to seniority, to any pilot on the seniority list, irrespective of how they got there
But if seniority rises from day one of joining PL, then that would silence most critics. It still doesn't answer why anyone would want to join PL as an FO when they could join mainline on much better terms. Maybe because of lower entry standards for PL? - dangerous ground!...
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But if seniority rises from day one of joining PL, then that would silence most critics.
It still doesn't answer why anyone would want to join PL as an FO when they could join mainline on much better terms. Maybe because of lower entry standards for PL? - dangerous ground!...
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For all those folks worried about their quick OS promotions being stopped by BA FOs transfering over: BA management have already offered BA secondments to OS retining mainline seniority. They don't care about OS FOs promotion prospects.
The single seniority list has no detrimental effect on anyone vs. what is already on the table. It just stops mainline being shafted in the years to come (and gives OS pilots a whole host of options in later life).
There is no reason for pilot in-fighting.
The single seniority list has no detrimental effect on anyone vs. what is already on the table. It just stops mainline being shafted in the years to come (and gives OS pilots a whole host of options in later life).
There is no reason for pilot in-fighting.
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U.S. pilot. I'm reading about how BALPA pilots are going to allow their parent company to start another carrier using different T&C's. I'm sorry, most U.S. pilots have realized that's a no vote.
We allowed that to happen about 20 yrs ago with 'exceptions' to our Scope clauses. That was the growth of the commuter airline industry feeding the mainline airlines. Many of us think it was a terrible mistake.
My recommendation? BALPA seniority list and standard T&C's. Otherwise the company has incentive to grow the 'cheaper' airline at the expense of the 'expensive' airline. There is less chance of 'bait and switch' tactics by BA management if there is one contract.
One company, one list, one contract. It's much safer that way.
We allowed that to happen about 20 yrs ago with 'exceptions' to our Scope clauses. That was the growth of the commuter airline industry feeding the mainline airlines. Many of us think it was a terrible mistake.
My recommendation? BALPA seniority list and standard T&C's. Otherwise the company has incentive to grow the 'cheaper' airline at the expense of the 'expensive' airline. There is less chance of 'bait and switch' tactics by BA management if there is one contract.
One company, one list, one contract. It's much safer that way.
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I think the commands will go to existing BA pilots and the likes of me won't get a look-in. I can't say how because I don't know the nuts and bolts, but somehow it will happen.
Seriously, if you can't be bothered to read and try and understand what has been written in reply to your points, then you'll just have to continue on in your own blinkered way.
Just don't say you haven't been warned not to get caught in the middle of a BA v BALPA dispute that now appears highly likely.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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My recommendation? BALPA seniority list and standard T&C's. Otherwise the company has incentive to grow the 'cheaper' airline at the expense of the 'expensive' airline. There is less chance of 'bait and switch' tactics by BA management if there is one contract.
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As for these aircraft,when Open Skies is up and running,they apparently will only visit LHR about once every 18/24 months for a C check....All other checks will be done in Antwerp.......Can anyone confirm these rumours??
The C Checks will be done at LHR, until the LHR B757 C Check line closes in about 5 years time. Last I heard all minor checks will be carried out at BRU by SN Technics on the Saturday layover ( BRU flight will not operate on Sat)
The C Checks will be done at LHR, until the LHR B757 C Check line closes in about 5 years time. Last I heard all minor checks will be carried out at BRU by SN Technics on the Saturday layover ( BRU flight will not operate on Sat)
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I understand the reasons for hoping BALPA is successful as posted previously but can’t help thinking that the main benefits BACC have for starting up OpenLies would be pretty much redundant if the T’s and C’s of BA crew are transferred across?
Keeping it separate allows them to have a more flexible workforce and indeed airline and allows them to treat crew in a way BA pilots wouldn’t like to imagine!
I think the term “Trojan horse” is misguiding, as it’s clear BACC want new opportunities to be taken up outside BA by the very existence of OpenLies, if it becomes a success it’s unlikely to revert back to mainline is it and this can only be the beginning of a very slippery slope (Jetstar/Qantas
).
Ultimately if BA pilots loose their T’s and C’s there’s no hope for the rest of us!
All the best with the fight.
Keeping it separate allows them to have a more flexible workforce and indeed airline and allows them to treat crew in a way BA pilots wouldn’t like to imagine!
I think the term “Trojan horse” is misguiding, as it’s clear BACC want new opportunities to be taken up outside BA by the very existence of OpenLies, if it becomes a success it’s unlikely to revert back to mainline is it and this can only be the beginning of a very slippery slope (Jetstar/Qantas
). Ultimately if BA pilots loose their T’s and C’s there’s no hope for the rest of us!
All the best with the fight.
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BA employees worked hard to make the profits that are being used to fund PL.
Further, there is no mention of funding - there is likely to be debt included - so probably best to leave the spurious issues and concentrate on the core issue.
Is it a threat to or taking away from the current workforces' jobs. As a union member, aside from safety, that is the only issue you should care about.
Forget the spurious ancillary issues as BA management will tie you up to Christmas and ignore the main point.
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So its game on then.
The process has run its course with no agreement.
Balpa response to Ba's final offer (which falls short) will be on Thursday.
I despise the management of this company for what they have turned me into.
The process has run its course with no agreement.
Balpa response to Ba's final offer (which falls short) will be on Thursday.
I despise the management of this company for what they have turned me into.
