BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
The aircraft should have been fully configured at 1000 ft including power at approach setting and on the glideslope. At 500 ft they have to have been fully stable or gone around. So,if at 600 ft those thrust levers were at around approach setting and a little increase was demanded for whatever reason , then even if nothing happened they would surely have landed a lot deeper thanjust inside the perimeter fence. If the engines were at idle at 600 ft(and that is only an if),then the aircraft would not have been stable at 500ft in any sense.
Glad it was 27L as 27R has no luxury of plenty of grass inside the fence,and a multi storey car park just outside.
Glad it was 27L as 27R has no luxury of plenty of grass inside the fence,and a multi storey car park just outside.
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Lets face it, we are all speculating about WHAT HAPPENED, something the investigators already know. The DFDR etc will have shown that. Meanwhile they are teasing us, while they work out WHY. Soooooo unfair!
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Digitalsubstance what on earth makes you think this was pilot error with only speculation to go on?
However Frangatang you make a valid point. the aircraft I fly needs approx 1.3EPR on a normal approach, if it was at idle as you correctly say the approach was not stable.
we of course have to wait and see.
However Frangatang you make a valid point. the aircraft I fly needs approx 1.3EPR on a normal approach, if it was at idle as you correctly say the approach was not stable.
we of course have to wait and see.
Fuel contamination
The Chinese fuel contamination suggested by Dropp the Pilot has to be high on the list of possible causes. (It also supports my earlier theory of contaminated or blocked fuel nozzles for the same reason...
). It can and does sometimes happen - ask Mobil Oil Australia
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/c...01/01chr02.htm
). It can and does sometimes happen - ask Mobil Oil Australiahttp://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/c...01/01chr02.htm
Everything is under control.
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"Imagine if you would, a businessman or woman anxious to get their messages after a long transcontinental flight. To save a few minutes they turn on their cellphone while on final appraoch knowing that they will be able to get a signal at that point . . .."
This has been mentioned a couple of times recently in posts. I just want to add as SLF that I increasingly observe wireless devices being turned on during final approach. SLF may not be talking or texting but the devices are being turned on and transmitting control signals, I expect at high power to get a signal through those small windows to a base station antenna that is designed to have low gain above the horizontal (geometrical) plane.
Normally I expect this is not a problem. But (also suggested above) if some shielding comes loose from a cable, a filter breaks, etc. perhaps the system could become susceptible.
The SLF's wireless service providers store accurate, to the second, records of access that could be checked and matched to the sequence of events. Be aware, though, that it is possible a wireless device was attempting a contact at high power but did not succeed with the base station. In that case there would be no record.
This has been mentioned a couple of times recently in posts. I just want to add as SLF that I increasingly observe wireless devices being turned on during final approach. SLF may not be talking or texting but the devices are being turned on and transmitting control signals, I expect at high power to get a signal through those small windows to a base station antenna that is designed to have low gain above the horizontal (geometrical) plane.
Normally I expect this is not a problem. But (also suggested above) if some shielding comes loose from a cable, a filter breaks, etc. perhaps the system could become susceptible.
The SLF's wireless service providers store accurate, to the second, records of access that could be checked and matched to the sequence of events. Be aware, though, that it is possible a wireless device was attempting a contact at high power but did not succeed with the base station. In that case there would be no record.
Last edited by Eboy; 19th Jan 2008 at 10:01.
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Aircraft weight.
Recently ex-LL approach ATCO here. I wonder if a B777 qualified person would give me a considered opinion on a hypothetical point.
I understand the aircraft had 151 people on board against a full load of about 320? I would estimate that another 150 or so people and their luggage would weigh in the order of 15 tonnes? Had the aircraft been operating at full load it would obviously have had a higher final approach speed. My question:
Is it likely that at such a weight it would still have been able to glide to the field? In other words, did it only just make the field because it was relatively light or would the higher final approach speed have carried it in at the heavier weight?
.4
I understand the aircraft had 151 people on board against a full load of about 320? I would estimate that another 150 or so people and their luggage would weigh in the order of 15 tonnes? Had the aircraft been operating at full load it would obviously have had a higher final approach speed. My question:
Is it likely that at such a weight it would still have been able to glide to the field? In other words, did it only just make the field because it was relatively light or would the higher final approach speed have carried it in at the heavier weight?
.4
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Forget about approach/flight idle.. The engines are not going to be at idle on a 3 degree glidepath with landing flaps and gear hanging out (The captain said it was a normal approach until 2 miles out). You need thrust to maintain a 3 degree glidepath.
If the engines were at any sort of idle, then something has failed...
If the engines were at any sort of idle, then something has failed...
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Would it be possible that the aircraft suffered a single engine failure at 600 FT and then the engine failure procedure was rushed and the incorrect engine shut down? If that was the case, then I doubt they would have had time to get it going again!
This has happened in other accidents/incidents!
Sorry if this has already been covered. I haven't read all 32 pages!
This has happened in other accidents/incidents!
Sorry if this has already been covered. I haven't read all 32 pages!
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Should the AAIB discover ( or in fact have already discovered ) fuel contamination or excess water in the fuel , attributable to the Chinese end of the operation , will there be political pressure to avoid a diplomatic faux pas during the Prime Minister's visit to China ?
All pure speculation and rumour .
All pure speculation and rumour .
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Having finally read through the entire 32 pages of this thread (in between server crashes), the two following comments stand out to me above all others!
I certainly do share your unease! I don't understand how we can be praising the crew (apart from the cabin crew who initiated the evacuation) unless we know all the factors that contributed to this accident! Sure the outcome was favourable on this occasion, but that could just as well have been 'in spite of' the crews actions', rather than 'because' of the crews actions'!
Now this is not to cast aspersions on the crew, but to say perhaps we should hold off on the praise until a little later.
At the moment all we have is speculation, albeit some well informed! I too have my own theory, but for the time being I will keep it to myself, let the investigators do there job people!
I too have no doubt that there will be a human element involved, I just hope that it is neither a deliberate, nor negligent involvement...
One question, does anyone else share my unease about heaping praise on the crew until the full results are in, I seem to remember something similar regarding Kegworth for the first three days after that incident.
Now this is not to cast aspersions on the crew, but to say perhaps we should hold off on the praise until a little later.
At the moment all we have is speculation, albeit some well informed! I too have my own theory, but for the time being I will keep it to myself, let the investigators do there job people!
Have some faith in your hardware is what 10,000 hours on the 777 has taught me. There will be human skulduggery at root here somewhere.
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I'm in a hurry to get to LHR to go to work so apologies for the methodology of getting this message across but here goes:
Mods: PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ANNOTATE THOSE POSTS THAT ARE SO TOTALLY TIME WASTING FROM PRETENDERS WHO USE FLAWED TERMINOLOGY TO TRY AND PRETEND THAT THEY ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ON ABOUT. I SUGGEST LARGE RED WRITING UNDERNEATH THEIR POSTS WITH ANALOGIES COMPARING THE POSTERS TO "WALTER MITTY", "FLIGHT SIM DIPSTICK" AND "BLITHERING IDIOT"!
IT IS ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING THAT SOME OF THE POSTERS ON THIS THREAD COME UP WITH IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED AND TIME WASTING COMMENTS THAT WE MODS THEN HAVE TO SIFT THROUGH IN ORDER TO TRY AND KEEP SOME SEMBLANCE OF REALITY TO THE CONTENT. THE MODS ARE FREE TO FIRE AT WILL AT THE REGULARS WHO ARE TRYING OUR PATIENCE AND FLOODING THIS THREAD WITH NINCOMPOOP THEORIES BASED ON THEIR LACK OF ANY RELEVANT EXPERIENCE APART FROM AN INTEREST IN AVIATION AND HAVING BEEN A PASSENGER ONCE OR TWICE!
THE TIME HAS COME TO NAME AND SHAME THESE TIME WASTERS WHO ARE TRYING OUR PATIENCE WITH THEIR ILL INFORMED BRAVADO AND NONSENSE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
Mods: PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ANNOTATE THOSE POSTS THAT ARE SO TOTALLY TIME WASTING FROM PRETENDERS WHO USE FLAWED TERMINOLOGY TO TRY AND PRETEND THAT THEY ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ON ABOUT. I SUGGEST LARGE RED WRITING UNDERNEATH THEIR POSTS WITH ANALOGIES COMPARING THE POSTERS TO "WALTER MITTY", "FLIGHT SIM DIPSTICK" AND "BLITHERING IDIOT"!
IT IS ABSOLUTELY STAGGERING THAT SOME OF THE POSTERS ON THIS THREAD COME UP WITH IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED AND TIME WASTING COMMENTS THAT WE MODS THEN HAVE TO SIFT THROUGH IN ORDER TO TRY AND KEEP SOME SEMBLANCE OF REALITY TO THE CONTENT. THE MODS ARE FREE TO FIRE AT WILL AT THE REGULARS WHO ARE TRYING OUR PATIENCE AND FLOODING THIS THREAD WITH NINCOMPOOP THEORIES BASED ON THEIR LACK OF ANY RELEVANT EXPERIENCE APART FROM AN INTEREST IN AVIATION AND HAVING BEEN A PASSENGER ONCE OR TWICE!
THE TIME HAS COME TO NAME AND SHAME THESE TIME WASTERS WHO ARE TRYING OUR PATIENCE WITH THEIR ILL INFORMED BRAVADO AND NONSENSE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
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Danny
And the speculation continues...
I feel sure that everyone has read every sentence and paragraph within the media press reports and it's my hope that every professional flyer will agree that it's all been a huge pile of 'tosh'. The 'Chief Editor' of the Daily Mail drivelled on and on about how many holidays the captain took etc, and I'm very surprised that we didn't get his inside leg measurement included into the 'hogwash' of a press release.
We've had many speculators and so called 'professionals' putting in their two-penneth into this thread, which I feel has fuelled the rubbish that the press have fed into their press reports. PPrune is a fabulous tool, but there are many people who have added a comment here just because they can, but really don't have a clue about what they are talking about
. There's no point in having free speech from Joe Public about matters that they are clearly inadequately prepared for... it will only fuel the rubbish that the press will inevitably quote as being from a reliable source!
Wings have fallen off... no PA from the captain... APU door open... RAT deployment... lights still on in the cabin when power failure was reported, etc, etc, etc. Come on guys get real; it all happened in the final couple of miles and at around 600 feet; who in there right mind would think that a RAT is going to adequately spin-up at 140 kts or so? Who cares? Lights still on in the cabin... it's called Emergency Lighting! These guys didn't have any alternatives in their back pockets and they could do nothing more but stetch the glide and try and put the aeroplane into an open space... hence, very high 'Alpha' and low over the fence at low speed; vis-a-vie, huge carrumph and shove the gear up through the wing root. John Coward did a good job; as did the Captain and the cabin crew
... it's called a team! Let's leave the investigation to the AAIB and wait for the real facts.
I've now had my two-penneth; without any speculation! I prefer to leave that sort of thing to the professional guys who are trained to do that very job; Robin Tydeman... former Test Pilot, Airline Captain and now Accident Investigation Officer.
For those who want to 'have a go' at me from behind the cover of their laptops... please feel free to do so; I'll reply to the professionals, but to those who have reported wings falling off and why the lights were on in the cabin; captains holidays and inside leg measurements... I have an ignore button!
TCF
Edit
Well said Danny... you got yours in whilst I was being tested by the loss of bandwidth.
I feel sure that everyone has read every sentence and paragraph within the media press reports and it's my hope that every professional flyer will agree that it's all been a huge pile of 'tosh'. The 'Chief Editor' of the Daily Mail drivelled on and on about how many holidays the captain took etc, and I'm very surprised that we didn't get his inside leg measurement included into the 'hogwash' of a press release.
We've had many speculators and so called 'professionals' putting in their two-penneth into this thread, which I feel has fuelled the rubbish that the press have fed into their press reports. PPrune is a fabulous tool, but there are many people who have added a comment here just because they can, but really don't have a clue about what they are talking about
. There's no point in having free speech from Joe Public about matters that they are clearly inadequately prepared for... it will only fuel the rubbish that the press will inevitably quote as being from a reliable source! Wings have fallen off... no PA from the captain... APU door open... RAT deployment... lights still on in the cabin when power failure was reported, etc, etc, etc. Come on guys get real; it all happened in the final couple of miles and at around 600 feet; who in there right mind would think that a RAT is going to adequately spin-up at 140 kts or so? Who cares? Lights still on in the cabin... it's called Emergency Lighting! These guys didn't have any alternatives in their back pockets and they could do nothing more but stetch the glide and try and put the aeroplane into an open space... hence, very high 'Alpha' and low over the fence at low speed; vis-a-vie, huge carrumph and shove the gear up through the wing root. John Coward did a good job; as did the Captain and the cabin crew
... it's called a team! Let's leave the investigation to the AAIB and wait for the real facts.I've now had my two-penneth; without any speculation! I prefer to leave that sort of thing to the professional guys who are trained to do that very job; Robin Tydeman... former Test Pilot, Airline Captain and now Accident Investigation Officer.
For those who want to 'have a go' at me from behind the cover of their laptops... please feel free to do so; I'll reply to the professionals, but to those who have reported wings falling off and why the lights were on in the cabin; captains holidays and inside leg measurements... I have an ignore button!
TCF
Edit
Well said Danny... you got yours in whilst I was being tested by the loss of bandwidth.
Last edited by TheChitterneFlyer; 19th Jan 2008 at 10:16. Reason: Added comment
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B777 Lhr
Well what a lot has been said. True the APU may have attempted to start as both transfer busses became unpowered during the ground run. LHR regularly requires 160 to 4 nm. When flap 30 bites, engines will auto spool up to maintain speed. However the 20 knot difference on a light -200 means that there will be some time before engines are commanded back from towards idle. 777 autothottle is somewhat slower to respond than the 747-400. BA require stabilised approach from 1000ft AAL, but this is not always possible with 160kts to 4nm unless you anticipate the 4nm point. If you decelrate at 4nm, then you won't be stable at 1000 feet. Just perhaps the stabilisation was later...it may have saved the day.
Quite how BA persuaded the pilots to be paraded on TV is beyond me, I would never do this. You can be sure they are certain there is no pilot error if they do this. A very good job done by all faced with this nightmare.
I too have some deep concerns of how an apparant double power down short finals ahs not grabbed more airlines deep attention. There have been a few reported cases of relay/ electronic control panels overheating in the last 5 months, all on the ground.
Looking forward to final report. Meantime well done chaps, and don't talk to the press remember the rules....
Rule 1 Never talk to the press- it NEVER works in your favour.
Rule 2 If tempted to talk to the press, see rule 1.
Quite how BA persuaded the pilots to be paraded on TV is beyond me, I would never do this. You can be sure they are certain there is no pilot error if they do this. A very good job done by all faced with this nightmare.
I too have some deep concerns of how an apparant double power down short finals ahs not grabbed more airlines deep attention. There have been a few reported cases of relay/ electronic control panels overheating in the last 5 months, all on the ground.
Looking forward to final report. Meantime well done chaps, and don't talk to the press remember the rules....
Rule 1 Never talk to the press- it NEVER works in your favour.
Rule 2 If tempted to talk to the press, see rule 1.
Sprucegoose
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You can be sure they are certain there is no pilot error if they do this.
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today's guardian today is quoting the following 'facts' from an unnamed source on the investigation...
- engine pressure ratio gauge had failed
- APU was deployed
- Thrust levers were on maximum setting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/...243357,00.html
- engine pressure ratio gauge had failed
- APU was deployed
- Thrust levers were on maximum setting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/...243357,00.html
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If, as many posters have postulated, there was a major lack of response to the demand for power at or around 600', then pray tell me just what input the pilots had on the eventual outcome? They were as much passengers as the rest of the people on board.
If throttles/power levers fully forward and full aft elevator are not found to be the position at impact, I will be most surprised.
The pilot of the Iberia bounced landing in Bilbao is reviled and ridiculed with scorn, described as an amateur and badly trained. Now, in a far worse outcome, we have posters heaping praise on the crew of BA038. How silly will you all feel if the AAIB find the crew cocked up the whole thing?
While I am not suggesting this is the case here, please, until we know exactly what happened, can we try to refrain from handing out medals and signing off on the subsequent board of inquiry?
If throttles/power levers fully forward and full aft elevator are not found to be the position at impact, I will be most surprised.
The pilot of the Iberia bounced landing in Bilbao is reviled and ridiculed with scorn, described as an amateur and badly trained. Now, in a far worse outcome, we have posters heaping praise on the crew of BA038. How silly will you all feel if the AAIB find the crew cocked up the whole thing?
While I am not suggesting this is the case here, please, until we know exactly what happened, can we try to refrain from handing out medals and signing off on the subsequent board of inquiry?
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today's guardian
Those same articles contain the following statement:
"...there has not been a single fatality on a 'major' airline for more than seven years. The last such crash was....in November 2001"
Better get those adding machines out there guys.
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Discokid,
I would be very wary of most if not all newspaper items. All too often they are written in general terms by people who little or no knowledge of the subject at hand.
I am a non-aviation person but here's my two-pence worth and I emphasize it is a guess so perhaps a professional will be kind enough to comment.
I wonder if this could point to a software failure? All software has bugs and one worrying statement I have heard is that sometimes a bug will take years to materialize.
For the present we do not know and and inquiries may even reveal an event that has not happened before. Such a situation or situations are one reason to maintain a human presence on the flight deck.
I suggest we all stay patient and wait until facts are established, too many here and elsewhere are believing rumours and theories, the facts are much less entertaining.
I would be very wary of most if not all newspaper items. All too often they are written in general terms by people who little or no knowledge of the subject at hand.
I am a non-aviation person but here's my two-pence worth and I emphasize it is a guess so perhaps a professional will be kind enough to comment.
I wonder if this could point to a software failure? All software has bugs and one worrying statement I have heard is that sometimes a bug will take years to materialize.
For the present we do not know and and inquiries may even reveal an event that has not happened before. Such a situation or situations are one reason to maintain a human presence on the flight deck.
I suggest we all stay patient and wait until facts are established, too many here and elsewhere are believing rumours and theories, the facts are much less entertaining.
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Cellphones
There have been suggestions that cellphones could contribute towards electrical systems upset. I have no idea if that is true or not, but one area I have a lot of experience (much more than any of you professional pilots) is flying in the back as SLF, especially around Asia and in China.
The point I would make (without wishing to be xenophobic) is that on many many flights I hear cell phones beeping or ringing on the last stages of approach, and some pax even carry on conversations. Some arlines make no attempt to stop this at all, and it is difficult for the CC to monitor as they are by that stage of the flight usually strapped in themselves.
Again, not putting this forward as any suggestion of cause. just noting the occurrence on Asian flights
The point I would make (without wishing to be xenophobic) is that on many many flights I hear cell phones beeping or ringing on the last stages of approach, and some pax even carry on conversations. Some arlines make no attempt to stop this at all, and it is difficult for the CC to monitor as they are by that stage of the flight usually strapped in themselves.
Again, not putting this forward as any suggestion of cause. just noting the occurrence on Asian flights