Police Officer in gun "joke" at MAN
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Well said Harpy, Max Continuous, Gaza .. Nice to see a sense of proportion being expressed with well considered and articulate comments amongst the predictable 'Send him down' vindictive clamour.
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Somebody has kindly answered for me, Harpy, I forget their "handle", but thanks.
The point here, I think, is that a police officer, and a reasonably senior one at that,should A) know the law, and B)in the present circumstances have enough sense not to break the law.
I would accept that 99.99% of pax would not know that they are actually committing an offence by "joking" about having a weapon etc etc in their possession, and under those circumstances a private bollocking by a uniform might suffice~if they continued to be unrepentant, then being denied boarding would probably prove both a sufficient and salutary lesson.
In this case, the individual most certainly should have known better. Even if he had a couple of pre-hol drinks, the fact that he was asked to repeat his remarks should have been sufficient warning that he had overstepped the mark. If he had enough alcohol to impair his judgement, then he should have been denied boarding anyway.
Sorry to drone on, but we in the industry are already suffering enough from "knee-jerk" reactions of various sorts, and writing this as an airline captain, I and the rest of my colleagues already see enough mindless behaviour by pax without having officialdom adding to it.
The point here, I think, is that a police officer, and a reasonably senior one at that,should A) know the law, and B)in the present circumstances have enough sense not to break the law.
I would accept that 99.99% of pax would not know that they are actually committing an offence by "joking" about having a weapon etc etc in their possession, and under those circumstances a private bollocking by a uniform might suffice~if they continued to be unrepentant, then being denied boarding would probably prove both a sufficient and salutary lesson.
In this case, the individual most certainly should have known better. Even if he had a couple of pre-hol drinks, the fact that he was asked to repeat his remarks should have been sufficient warning that he had overstepped the mark. If he had enough alcohol to impair his judgement, then he should have been denied boarding anyway.
Sorry to drone on, but we in the industry are already suffering enough from "knee-jerk" reactions of various sorts, and writing this as an airline captain, I and the rest of my colleagues already see enough mindless behaviour by pax without having officialdom adding to it.
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Max Continuous - quote 'All the security in the world wouldn't have helped prevent the recent atrocities'.
If there had been the same level of security over there as there is here in the UK then I feel sure that the terrorists would not have been so able to have achieved what they did.
The security at USA airports, internal or international has always been a poor joke and because of it the whole world now suffers.
Harpy - quote 'Have you all lost your sense of proportion? The worst he can be accused of is making an unwise remark out of frustration at having his pen knife confiscated. Hardly a reason for refusing him boarding. I suspect he might be a good man to have on board during an attempted hijack'.
There are signs at most if not all check in desks that state 'no jokes'etc, it is an offence'. No thank you there is no way on this earth that I would want a d--- head like him sat on the same airplane as me thank you very much.
A traffic cop, well that says a lot, there's a light on but nobody's home. A snior traffic officer in Brum recently got away with doing 45 in a 30 limit cus it was a medical emergency (he was going to the doctors). Yep he'll get away with it too.
If there had been the same level of security over there as there is here in the UK then I feel sure that the terrorists would not have been so able to have achieved what they did.
The security at USA airports, internal or international has always been a poor joke and because of it the whole world now suffers.
Harpy - quote 'Have you all lost your sense of proportion? The worst he can be accused of is making an unwise remark out of frustration at having his pen knife confiscated. Hardly a reason for refusing him boarding. I suspect he might be a good man to have on board during an attempted hijack'.
There are signs at most if not all check in desks that state 'no jokes'etc, it is an offence'. No thank you there is no way on this earth that I would want a d--- head like him sat on the same airplane as me thank you very much.
A traffic cop, well that says a lot, there's a light on but nobody's home. A snior traffic officer in Brum recently got away with doing 45 in a 30 limit cus it was a medical emergency (he was going to the doctors). Yep he'll get away with it too.
If this so called POLICE OFFICER had been stationed at Mcr Airport I wonder how he would insturuct his fellow officers and the security men/women to act if Mr Average had done this??There seems to be one law for them and one for any others.
Do unto others as they would do to you, BUT DO IT FIRST
Do unto others as they would do to you, BUT DO IT FIRST
I'm sorry, but in a time where nearly 7000 people have lost their lives, 150,000 people have lost their jobs and the world waits with bated breath, because of security breaches, I think that this person deserves what he gets.
p.s. I seriously hope that those people who think he should have flown after such a comment are NOT airline pilots!
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Right Way Up ]
p.s. I seriously hope that those people who think he should have flown after such a comment are NOT airline pilots!
[ 29 September 2001: Message edited by: Right Way Up ]
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Would a traffic cop be aware of the laws of international navigation? I don’t think so. You guys are being somewhat tough on a cop who made an idle remark after he was harassed over his pocketknife. Sure, the remark was tactless but he did square-off by producing a valid police ID. That should have ended the incident.
One can only assume a breakdown in CRM between two law enforcement agencies ensued. That breakdown delayed a flight by forty minutes and stopped the cop and his wife from undertaking a vacation that was obviously overdue.
When you read the comments by “KEG”, a tale that is obviously colored with plenty of fictional license, it appears to reinforce the tacit suggestion of rivalry between the security guard and the cop. I guess this rivalry is based on the professional training that a cop undertakes in comparison to that afforded a ‘bouncer’ wielding a metal detector.
I would ask Keg – who are the…dickheads with too much power…? Sounds like the bouncer in this case.
One can only assume a breakdown in CRM between two law enforcement agencies ensued. That breakdown delayed a flight by forty minutes and stopped the cop and his wife from undertaking a vacation that was obviously overdue.
When you read the comments by “KEG”, a tale that is obviously colored with plenty of fictional license, it appears to reinforce the tacit suggestion of rivalry between the security guard and the cop. I guess this rivalry is based on the professional training that a cop undertakes in comparison to that afforded a ‘bouncer’ wielding a metal detector.
I would ask Keg – who are the…dickheads with too much power…? Sounds like the bouncer in this case.
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Isn't the point being missed a little here? With some jobs, a sense of responsibility even when not actually in work is needed - like it or not it goes with the territory. A 15,000 hour pilot with the greatest flying skills in the world would expect to get the book thrown at them if they buzzed Buckingham Palace at 200 feet - the argument that they were no threat (in that case due to their ability to do it safely) would cut no ice. Likewise a police officer, particularly a senior one has a responsibility even when off duty not to ignore laws when they feel like it - or face the consequences. As others have said, saying it once is stupid, but to repeat it, and then to try and initimidate the security guard into backing off by flashing his warrant card is gross professional misconduct in my view.
PS: The point about wanting all pax to carry weapons to tackle hijackers is an interesting one. Presumably this will necessitate 2 channels at each security checkpoint, one marked for ordinary passengers ("is that Uzi part of your anti hijack equipment Sir? Yes - no problem, please proceed"), and one channel for terrorists ("I'm sorry sir, you will have to leave your nail clippers behind"). Hmmm - that could work!!!
PS: The point about wanting all pax to carry weapons to tackle hijackers is an interesting one. Presumably this will necessitate 2 channels at each security checkpoint, one marked for ordinary passengers ("is that Uzi part of your anti hijack equipment Sir? Yes - no problem, please proceed"), and one channel for terrorists ("I'm sorry sir, you will have to leave your nail clippers behind"). Hmmm - that could work!!!
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Curious pax,
There is a big difference between a premeditated action – flying in a no-fly zone – and an idle comment made on the spur of the moment. My point was that the cop was just letting off a little steam (in a misguided sense) and he probably regretted it almost as quickly.
We all say things that we regret a little later and I feel that in this instance the outcome was an over-reaction. The more level headed replies from the likes of ‘harpy’ and ‘Max Continuous’ support this. And after all the issue has been further blown up by the media who would no doubt like to have a traffic cop on toast!
There is a big difference between a premeditated action – flying in a no-fly zone – and an idle comment made on the spur of the moment. My point was that the cop was just letting off a little steam (in a misguided sense) and he probably regretted it almost as quickly.
We all say things that we regret a little later and I feel that in this instance the outcome was an over-reaction. The more level headed replies from the likes of ‘harpy’ and ‘Max Continuous’ support this. And after all the issue has been further blown up by the media who would no doubt like to have a traffic cop on toast!
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Max Continouus - I had to read your comment twice just to make sure I wasn't still asleep!! Arm everyone on the plane, including would be hijackers???? I think if I had a choice of being sat on a plane with everyone armed or everyone having gone through security checks and any weapons removed I would go for the latter. I am starting to think that the only reason you work at an airport is it gives you somewhere to park your spaceship...
Harpy - Agreed, they can. On the other hand though, a mate of mine used to work in Customs and to get the job he underwent very stringent proceedures - he was PV'd, neighbours, friends interviewed etc. He was also subject to random checks, although admittedly not as stringent as getting checked every time you walk in or out.
Julian.
Harpy - Agreed, they can. On the other hand though, a mate of mine used to work in Customs and to get the job he underwent very stringent proceedures - he was PV'd, neighbours, friends interviewed etc. He was also subject to random checks, although admittedly not as stringent as getting checked every time you walk in or out.
Julian.
I can't believe the amount of comment on this subject without knowing the facts. What exactly did he say? Was it for example "If you touch that pen knife I will shoot you". Or maybe it was "You will certainly find my gun with this good security you have here". If it was the former, he should have been given the full works. If it was the latter, the security officer should have replyed with an equally flipant remark and ignored it. Lets face it, being processed through the cattle market of todays air travel preliminaries with all the hassle it entails (and yes all of it is necessary) is pretty stressful and lets face it, if you find your nose hair clippers being confiscated by some little hitler behind a desk (which some of them are - yes we all have them) it is very easy to make a sarky remark and no doubt regret it immediately after. Allowances should be made by everyone in these stressful times.
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Roundwego,
He is alleged to have said - "Watch it, I have got a gun".
Mount'in Man suggests that it should have been OK because he showed a valid police ID card. Guess it would have been lower profile if he hadn't done that! Why was he carrying his ID on a vacation? Do police have to carry an ID at all times?
He is alleged to have said - "Watch it, I have got a gun".
Mount'in Man suggests that it should have been OK because he showed a valid police ID card. Guess it would have been lower profile if he hadn't done that! Why was he carrying his ID on a vacation? Do police have to carry an ID at all times?
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Max,
Are you serious? As "customers" we expect safe flights. That pays the airline industries wages. Agreed, been treated olike crap by security staff and crew is not on, but joking with someone about a gun, is not part of customer care. Let's see if Scotland Yard has a sence of humour if you walk in there, and announce you have a gun! As part of our fare should the passengers all have a go at flying the thing as well.
Get real!!
Are you serious? As "customers" we expect safe flights. That pays the airline industries wages. Agreed, been treated olike crap by security staff and crew is not on, but joking with someone about a gun, is not part of customer care. Let's see if Scotland Yard has a sence of humour if you walk in there, and announce you have a gun! As part of our fare should the passengers all have a go at flying the thing as well.
Get real!!
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Curious pax, Julian, who's talking about arming passengers? We're not talking about hoisting guns and daggers on unsuspecting passengers and crews, just allowing people to retain household implements that anyone might reasonably be carrying around on a day-to-day basis. Nail clippers, for instance. Bit of an over-reaction removing those, just possibly?
A colleague had a penknife removed from his flight bag going through security just minutes before being approached on the flight deck by a despatcher bearing an envelope containing five similar "offensive weapons" for safe-keeping on the flight deck for the duration of the flight.
As we're reminded above, flying is a "bloody serious business". There's no room any more for humour, or attempted humour, a smile, a giggle, a laugh, a titter, or a joke with an official within ten miles of any airport in the world. Just sad people everywhere going around with the weight of the world on their shoulders, scowling and casting suspicious glances at their fellow travellers. Heavy hearted, humourless souls. Pilots locked away in reinforced flight decks. Fear everywhere.
So we're all agreed. The terrorists have won.
A colleague had a penknife removed from his flight bag going through security just minutes before being approached on the flight deck by a despatcher bearing an envelope containing five similar "offensive weapons" for safe-keeping on the flight deck for the duration of the flight.
As we're reminded above, flying is a "bloody serious business". There's no room any more for humour, or attempted humour, a smile, a giggle, a laugh, a titter, or a joke with an official within ten miles of any airport in the world. Just sad people everywhere going around with the weight of the world on their shoulders, scowling and casting suspicious glances at their fellow travellers. Heavy hearted, humourless souls. Pilots locked away in reinforced flight decks. Fear everywhere.
So we're all agreed. The terrorists have won.
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Gents,
From a previous post in the "confiscated crew items" thread ....
From yesterdays news it is apparent that there was only one hi-jacker pilot per aircraft - the rest were the musclemen to prevent him being rushed by anyone else. Far easier for the pax/cabin crew to overpower the henchmen if they were in possession of something other than their fists n' feet, I would suggest.
A desperate shame that the poor souls onboard the Pittsburgh flight didn't have just a little more time available to them....
From a previous post in the "confiscated crew items" thread ....
By removing all sharp and pointy objects from the cabin and/or preventing pax from bringing ANYTHING onboard that could conceivably be used as a weapon, we are, in a stroke, also removing any means of defence that either the flight crew, cabin crew or pax have of defending themselves and wresting control back from the hijackers.
A desperate shame that the poor souls onboard the Pittsburgh flight didn't have just a little more time available to them....
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Max - you were talking about arming passengers.
Personally I would rather have everything taken off passengers then there is nothing to worry about in the first place.
And yes I do agree with you that taking a pen knife off a college then giving it him back in a brown ebvelope for safe keeping is a bit of a Homer Simpson. I don't think they had their 3 weetabix that morning.
if we, the pilots, cabin crew and fare-paying passengers were permitted to carry on to aircraft certain household items such as pen-knives, nail-clippers and syringes which could, in extremis, be used as offensive weapons. I'd personally feel a lot safer knowing most passengers were thus "armed" in the event that a group of nutters on board decided to try to take over the aircraft. At least we've got something to fight with.
And yes I do agree with you that taking a pen knife off a college then giving it him back in a brown ebvelope for safe keeping is a bit of a Homer Simpson. I don't think they had their 3 weetabix that morning.
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Julian,
Without wishing to slide into pedantry here, there's a subtle difference between arming passengers and passengers being "armed". If we're not allowed a sense of humour any more, surely to God we can keep a sense of irony.
Without wishing to slide into pedantry here, there's a subtle difference between arming passengers and passengers being "armed". If we're not allowed a sense of humour any more, surely to God we can keep a sense of irony.
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Years ago a man ex governor of Massachusets was at boston logan boarding a flight when he made a joke about having a bomb....he was detained 30 mins....i was in the security queue behind him and heard the whole thing...some people are not serious about anything...hope they get the picture now
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What the hell does it matter whether this guy was a Cop, Dentist, Pilot or the cleaner from the local bank? Anyone who makes threatening comments or "jokes" regarding any security issues should be dealt with in the same way.....point blank refusal to fly, arrested and dealt with accordingly.
Some people happen to take airline & airport security very seriously, and if you think that the odd joke here and there is acceptable - think again about what has just happened, and could happen again at any airport, anywhere, anytime if we let it!
The same rule has applied for years in the UK - anyone who mentions they have bombs/guns etc as a joke or otherwise, do not travel.
Get real
Some people happen to take airline & airport security very seriously, and if you think that the odd joke here and there is acceptable - think again about what has just happened, and could happen again at any airport, anywhere, anytime if we let it!
The same rule has applied for years in the UK - anyone who mentions they have bombs/guns etc as a joke or otherwise, do not travel.
Get real
