Qantas B744 Total electrical failure?
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Qantas B744 Total electrical failure?
QANTAS faced a potential disaster on Monday when a jumbo jet en route from London lost all main electrical power and was forced to land on battery back-up.
Flight QF2 with 344 passengers on board was about 15 minutes from Bangkok when the highly unusual failure took place and a back-up system kicked in.
With the batteries providing power for up to an hour, aviation sources said the failure would have been a disaster if it had occurred further out to sea.
"If this had happened over the ocean in the middle of the night, it would probably have crashed," an experienced 747 pilot told The Australian last night.
The near-disaster came nine years after a Qantas 747 aquaplaned off the end of the runway at Bangkok airport, crashing through navigational equipment and finishing up across a perimeter road 220m away.
The crash, Qantas's worst in 40 years, caused about $100million in damage.
Qantas chief pilot Chris Manning and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau yesterday confirmed the incident took place as the plane returned from London. "The back-up system was activated and the aircraft landed safely," Captain Manning said.
"Qantas reported the incident to Boeing, the ATSB and Civil Aviation Safety Authority and is also conducting its own thorough investigation.
"The aircraft is currently being repaired and assessed."
ATSB deputy director of aviation safety investigation Julian Walsh said investigators had been advised of the failure and had asked for flight data and cockpit voice recorders to be quarantined.
He said the ATSB was liaising with Thai authorities about who should lead the investigation. It was too early to say what had happened, he said, but he agreed the failure was "unusual".
"Obviously Qantas, Boeing and ourselves are keen to get to the bottom of it," he said.
"The information I have at the moment is that it was a total power failure."
Mr Walsh said he understood the aircraft's systems went into a degraded mode under standby power to reduce the drain on the batteries. The 747-400 has four generators, one on each engine, plus two generators on the auxiliary power unit that sources said could be linked to the main system in an emergency.
A Qantas engineer familiar with the the 747-400's electrical systems said the failure was unheard of.
He said the battery back-up and standby inverter would supply power for up to an hour.
"It's pretty dramatic if they've lost all generation systems," hesaid.
The engineer agreed the APU generators could be used in an emergency but noted that would depend on the fault that had led to the loss of power.
Another 747-400 pilot said he was aware of two other instances when the electrical systems had failed and the aircraft went to the battery back-up. "It has happened before and the aeroplane can quite comfortably cope with it for a limited period of time," he said.
Australian and International Pilots Association president Ian Woods was also surprised that the plane had lost all power. "The pilots have done a good job in dealing with a highly unusual event," he said.
Flight QF2 with 344 passengers on board was about 15 minutes from Bangkok when the highly unusual failure took place and a back-up system kicked in.
With the batteries providing power for up to an hour, aviation sources said the failure would have been a disaster if it had occurred further out to sea.
"If this had happened over the ocean in the middle of the night, it would probably have crashed," an experienced 747 pilot told The Australian last night.
The near-disaster came nine years after a Qantas 747 aquaplaned off the end of the runway at Bangkok airport, crashing through navigational equipment and finishing up across a perimeter road 220m away.
The crash, Qantas's worst in 40 years, caused about $100million in damage.
Qantas chief pilot Chris Manning and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau yesterday confirmed the incident took place as the plane returned from London. "The back-up system was activated and the aircraft landed safely," Captain Manning said.
"Qantas reported the incident to Boeing, the ATSB and Civil Aviation Safety Authority and is also conducting its own thorough investigation.
"The aircraft is currently being repaired and assessed."
ATSB deputy director of aviation safety investigation Julian Walsh said investigators had been advised of the failure and had asked for flight data and cockpit voice recorders to be quarantined.
He said the ATSB was liaising with Thai authorities about who should lead the investigation. It was too early to say what had happened, he said, but he agreed the failure was "unusual".
"Obviously Qantas, Boeing and ourselves are keen to get to the bottom of it," he said.
"The information I have at the moment is that it was a total power failure."
Mr Walsh said he understood the aircraft's systems went into a degraded mode under standby power to reduce the drain on the batteries. The 747-400 has four generators, one on each engine, plus two generators on the auxiliary power unit that sources said could be linked to the main system in an emergency.
A Qantas engineer familiar with the the 747-400's electrical systems said the failure was unheard of.
He said the battery back-up and standby inverter would supply power for up to an hour.
"It's pretty dramatic if they've lost all generation systems," hesaid.
The engineer agreed the APU generators could be used in an emergency but noted that would depend on the fault that had led to the loss of power.
Another 747-400 pilot said he was aware of two other instances when the electrical systems had failed and the aircraft went to the battery back-up. "It has happened before and the aeroplane can quite comfortably cope with it for a limited period of time," he said.
Australian and International Pilots Association president Ian Woods was also surprised that the plane had lost all power. "The pilots have done a good job in dealing with a highly unusual event," he said.
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The source is The Australian for 9th January 2008:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-2702,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-2702,00.html
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"If this had happened over the ocean in the middle of the night, it would probably have crashed," an experienced 747 pilot told The Australian last night.
On second thoughts, a better way for him to describe the scenario would be "If this had happened over the ocean in the middle of the night, I would probably have crashed". Idiot.
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I think he may have been alluding to the fact that if he was out at sea, middle of the night, he would have had to fly for longer than the standby power system supplies battery power to the standby instruments.
When the juice has dried up, I think it would be a little challenging flying at night with only a magnetic compass, no A/H, and basic pressure altimiter and airspeed. No comms, or nav aids, foreign country. Not impossible, but pretty difficult.
When the juice has dried up, I think it would be a little challenging flying at night with only a magnetic compass, no A/H, and basic pressure altimiter and airspeed. No comms, or nav aids, foreign country. Not impossible, but pretty difficult.
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Weekend flyer here - no opinions, only questions, so pls treat accordingly. Gald someone else is questioning this so called "experience pilot". Out if interest, if it had happened further out and the back up batteries or bus had failed but all engines were still running, plane can still be controlled, right? Hyrd. units would be pressurised by the engines and gear could still be lowered also - is that correct? What would the crew have available to them? Analogue compass only? Could the APU be started if relevant altitude was reached, and even if it could, would the crew even know their altitude (could ATC provide an accurate reading?)? Are there SOPs covering such an event? Pretty amazing set of circumstances whatever the cause. Thanks.
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I think things look pretty dire for anyone at night time IFR when all battery power has gone. Someone holding the torch up to illuminate what standby instrumentation is left - no airtifical horizon, no comms - no body to talk to, no nav aids - just a compass.
Think I would be asking the cabin crew to get a pax to see if they had a portable GPS on them.
I understand the APU of a 744 is not designed to run inflight.
Anyone know what happens to the windows when they lose electrical power/heating for an extended period of time (i dont know - just a question here)
Think I would be asking the cabin crew to get a pax to see if they had a portable GPS on them.
I understand the APU of a 744 is not designed to run inflight.
Anyone know what happens to the windows when they lose electrical power/heating for an extended period of time (i dont know - just a question here)
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B747-400 Rat
no, B747 does not have a RAT
and if you are thinking that was an easy job flyig on batteries please let me write down here some of the more important (ad my advise)inoperative systems: (in order of less importance )
sped Brake Auto/single source ILS/cabin ALT auto/fuel pressure 4-1/AC bus all/yaw damp/Packs 3,2,1,/fuel pumps aft/fw 2,3,/heat probes including TAT and AOA/ Ground p[orximity protection/trasponder/FMC right/ IRS AC all/
cheers
and if you are thinking that was an easy job flyig on batteries please let me write down here some of the more important (ad my advise)inoperative systems: (in order of less importance )
sped Brake Auto/single source ILS/cabin ALT auto/fuel pressure 4-1/AC bus all/yaw damp/Packs 3,2,1,/fuel pumps aft/fw 2,3,/heat probes including TAT and AOA/ Ground p[orximity protection/trasponder/FMC right/ IRS AC all/
cheers
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As to what caused this failure?
A source claims it was a blocked drain under one of the gally's that caused water to short out an electronics rack that caused the generators to fail.
I'm sure the full and proper cause will be revealed.
It would be a real shame though ,if this was due to substandard outsourced maintanence wouldn't it!
Another case of Profitability before Safety before Schedule?
A source claims it was a blocked drain under one of the gally's that caused water to short out an electronics rack that caused the generators to fail.
I'm sure the full and proper cause will be revealed.
It would be a real shame though ,if this was due to substandard outsourced maintanence wouldn't it!
Another case of Profitability before Safety before Schedule?
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"It would be a real shame though ,if this was due to substandard outsourced maintanence wouldn't "
Seems it may not have been outsourced at all - post on the D&G forum suggests it was local.
Seems it may not have been outsourced at all - post on the D&G forum suggests it was local.
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"Seems it may not have been outsourced at all - post on the D&G forum suggests it was local."
Reportedly it was the last aircraft to have gone through major maintainance in Sydney... Why am I not surprised... The people doing the work were probably about to lose their jobs (and they knew it). Their focus probably lay elsewhere.
The decay continues...
Rgds.
NSEU (former "expert".. now "jack of all trades.. master of none")
Reportedly it was the last aircraft to have gone through major maintainance in Sydney... Why am I not surprised... The people doing the work were probably about to lose their jobs (and they knew it). Their focus probably lay elsewhere.
The decay continues...
Rgds.
NSEU (former "expert".. now "jack of all trades.. master of none")
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Muppett99,
Loss of artificial horizon - I suspect it might be harder to see the real horizon at night, over the drink, at FL410 if there's no moon or unfavourable WX. So you might find yourself in a nicely balanced, imperceptible attitude change which suddenly gets very messy and difficult to recover from.
Loss of artificial horizon - I suspect it might be harder to see the real horizon at night, over the drink, at FL410 if there's no moon or unfavourable WX. So you might find yourself in a nicely balanced, imperceptible attitude change which suddenly gets very messy and difficult to recover from.
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Hmmm, down to ships battery power, not good.
It will be remembered by some that one airline, which pioneered many (but certainly not all) long overwater routes (Atlantic mostly)...TWA, had extra ships batteries fitted to cater for this very same potential problem.
PanAmerican (most aircraft)...likewise.
Never ever ever depart with insufficient ships battery backup power.
Note: Even TWA Constellations had extra ships batteries fitted....ditto their B707's, L1011's.
It will be remembered by some that one airline, which pioneered many (but certainly not all) long overwater routes (Atlantic mostly)...TWA, had extra ships batteries fitted to cater for this very same potential problem.
PanAmerican (most aircraft)...likewise.
Never ever ever depart with insufficient ships battery backup power.
Note: Even TWA Constellations had extra ships batteries fitted....ditto their B707's, L1011's.
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As I read it, when the batteries run out, you are dead meat. The only way to survive this scenario, as I understand it, would be to switch off the batteries to preserve the basic standby instruments until within range of an airfield. That would require a good visual horizon and a lot of seat of the pants skill.
Didn't the Americans lose a B52 with a similar problem during one of the Gulf wars?
Didn't the Americans lose a B52 with a similar problem during one of the Gulf wars?