What's really going on here?
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What a coincidence, was at a 'party' the other night, and was unfortunate to enough to be accosted by a drunken nitwit who proceeded to tell me why my job was so easy... went along the lines of: " it must be really hard pressing the autopilot button on the runway and then pulling back on the stick and landing at the other end".... I refused to justify the moron with a sensible response. However the next day it got me thinking (rarity i know), what has led to this universally accepted idea that we press a takeoff and land button? and more importantly, so that I can effectively counter future pea brains, what is your standard response when people you socialise with come out with such tripe? I mean, we have all had these questions.... "its all automatic nowadays though isnt it' Or 'Do you ever actually land it then'???? etc...
Happy (auto)landings all and may I be the first to wish you a happy easter.
Tacho
Happy (auto)landings all and may I be the first to wish you a happy easter.
Tacho
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It happens everywhere
Our industry is no different to any others in that change takes place and the challenges faced by the people at the coal face change as well, this has always been the way of the world. In a previous life I was in the Merchant Navy and as a 17 year old was often reminded that I had missed the "good old days" with the implication that things were now so easy that any idiot could do the job. The job was changing as it always had done; I'm sure the transition from sail to steam was viewed as a bad thing. Our industry is bound to change even more in the coming years and we have to accept that but also ensure we can adapt as well. Basic skills will always be a requirement and it's up to training departments to ensure that they are not lost and that practising in line operations is not seen as something non-standard. As regards the amount of pay anyone gets for a particular job then it is market forces that dictate the level of remuneration. We are not paid for being on standby to deal with an emergency or critical event but to take people (or goods) from A to B etc. The world does not work on people being paid pro-rata for their skill or responsibility; how could you equate a transplant surgeon to a premier-league footballer in the way they should be paid and there are many different examples of where the pay does not seem to have a relationship to real responsibility.
If someone asked me my opinion of wether it was a good job to try to get into then I would still say yes and certainly more varied than being a Dentist. That being said neither of my sons have shown any inclination to follow my path and that's fine with me as well, they should make their own way in life. The job is different now to what it was twenty years ago and will be quite different in another twenty but you will still see things from the cockpit that will make you turn to your colleague and say "That was worth getting up for".
If someone asked me my opinion of wether it was a good job to try to get into then I would still say yes and certainly more varied than being a Dentist. That being said neither of my sons have shown any inclination to follow my path and that's fine with me as well, they should make their own way in life. The job is different now to what it was twenty years ago and will be quite different in another twenty but you will still see things from the cockpit that will make you turn to your colleague and say "That was worth getting up for".
Last edited by tocamak; 28th Dec 2007 at 10:59. Reason: spelling
Gee!
I worked so hard all these years to avoid the "**** hitting the Fan"!
...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!
How do I go about trying to explain that to the loved-ones of my mates that didn't make it?
I worked so hard all these years to avoid the "**** hitting the Fan"!
...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!
How do I go about trying to explain that to the loved-ones of my mates that didn't make it?
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Hold the phone
Ive wanted to be a pilot for a few years now, however i still have to finish college so whatever i end up doing is still a couple years away. This post has deffinately helped me open my eyes, for the better. In recent times i began to face the fact that the being a pilot may not be half as good or job satisfiying as i thought.
For a start i'd have to leave home for a few a couple of years to train, leaving behind my friends, family and all sorts of unfinished business in my life. Not to mention even if i did get a flying job, after who knows how long, i'd still have to pay 100,000k plus back to my parents (who are willing to loan me it). And all for what, a monitoring job? hmmm.....
I still have some years left to decide so i'll keep my eyes open for any changes in the future. The military (not the irish one anyway
) will soon be making their fighters pilotless, i shudder to think civil aircraft arent so far behind.
Working in a bank doesn't seem so bad anymore, my dad did it and he's doing very well. Good pay, holidays, social scene etc..... why not?
rhm
For a start i'd have to leave home for a few a couple of years to train, leaving behind my friends, family and all sorts of unfinished business in my life. Not to mention even if i did get a flying job, after who knows how long, i'd still have to pay 100,000k plus back to my parents (who are willing to loan me it). And all for what, a monitoring job? hmmm.....
I still have some years left to decide so i'll keep my eyes open for any changes in the future. The military (not the irish one anyway
) will soon be making their fighters pilotless, i shudder to think civil aircraft arent so far behind. Working in a bank doesn't seem so bad anymore, my dad did it and he's doing very well. Good pay, holidays, social scene etc..... why not?
rhm
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Despite what many would like to think, an increase in automation is not necessarily an increase in safety.
This is entirely speculation on my part but I imagine that if it were possible to graph safety vs automation for flightdeck operations you would get something roughly resembling an inversely exponential curve ie. it is highly worthwhile to a point, after which it gives a reducing increase in safety for a given increase in automation.
The bottom line is that an automated machine makes "decisions" based on parameters and rules. Once reality decides to step outside the machine's parameters the automatics are redundant. For example last week on passing 400 feet on departure a heron appeared in the flightpath. Does this mean we start fitting aircraft with bird avoidance technology?
With regard to the public perception of pilots being the cause of many crashes and wanting "biggles to sit on his hands", it should be remembered that we are one of the few industries that washes its laundry in public. Unfortunately TV programmes on butchers and food poisoning don't rank highly on TV producers to-do lists.
sr
This is entirely speculation on my part but I imagine that if it were possible to graph safety vs automation for flightdeck operations you would get something roughly resembling an inversely exponential curve ie. it is highly worthwhile to a point, after which it gives a reducing increase in safety for a given increase in automation.
The bottom line is that an automated machine makes "decisions" based on parameters and rules. Once reality decides to step outside the machine's parameters the automatics are redundant. For example last week on passing 400 feet on departure a heron appeared in the flightpath. Does this mean we start fitting aircraft with bird avoidance technology?
With regard to the public perception of pilots being the cause of many crashes and wanting "biggles to sit on his hands", it should be remembered that we are one of the few industries that washes its laundry in public. Unfortunately TV programmes on butchers and food poisoning don't rank highly on TV producers to-do lists.
sr
Last edited by speedrestriction; 28th Dec 2007 at 11:50. Reason: punctuation problems
Trash du Blanc
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I worked so hard all these years to avoid the "**** hitting the Fan"!
...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!
...and now I am being told because the "**** didn't hit the Fan", that the job must have been easy!
"I build, what, two thousand breedges - and do they call me Pierre the Bridge Builder? No! But you b@gger ONE goat...."
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speedrestriction:
I think it has been shown that having the flight crew baby-sit the automatics causes more accidents than the other way around. Let the crew fly the aircraft and let the computer prompt them if they're getting close to a cock-up.
Despite what many would like to think, an increase in automation is not necessarily an increase in safety.
What's really going on here?
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Am entering this topic to perhaps stop the nagging reminder to me with “no postings”
A little about myself
At 16 I had an ambition to enter the RAF. A flying or non flying role was not important but my academic achievements to date seemed to impress someone and was selected to go to Cranwell for flight crew selection. Medical was the first and the last of my dreams. Failed the colour blindness test.
My future eventually took me through an IT career which was financially rewarding but the yearning for the skies never left me. OK I got a PPL followed by a simple aircraft eventually moving into aerobatics but still look up at those big shiny things and think “if only”.
I have 2 commercial pilot friends who like to join me occasionally and throw it around a bit so I get first hand earache at times regarding their lives but what impresses me most is their dedication to the job. They both seem to still regard it as a great privilege despite both having gone through divorce
I try to understand the auto vs. manual arguments but obviously not qualified to make a judgment but as a passenger my vote would be in favour of the pilot who could ultimately bring this heavy lump of metal safely onto terra firma when the “chips” are down.
A little about myself
At 16 I had an ambition to enter the RAF. A flying or non flying role was not important but my academic achievements to date seemed to impress someone and was selected to go to Cranwell for flight crew selection. Medical was the first and the last of my dreams. Failed the colour blindness test.
My future eventually took me through an IT career which was financially rewarding but the yearning for the skies never left me. OK I got a PPL followed by a simple aircraft eventually moving into aerobatics but still look up at those big shiny things and think “if only”.
I have 2 commercial pilot friends who like to join me occasionally and throw it around a bit so I get first hand earache at times regarding their lives but what impresses me most is their dedication to the job. They both seem to still regard it as a great privilege despite both having gone through divorce
I try to understand the auto vs. manual arguments but obviously not qualified to make a judgment but as a passenger my vote would be in favour of the pilot who could ultimately bring this heavy lump of metal safely onto terra firma when the “chips” are down.
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It could be worse
"Give me some clouds to look at rather than a desk any day. "
Well said bmi.
Guys ( and girls) you are talking to a chap who till date regrets not getting good enough marks in school to qualify for flying school ( not that I could afford to even if I had)
And what did I become ? " Senior middle management" in one of my country's top 5 insurance companies after being " middle management" in an equally famous MF after being an equity analyst.
Even now when I hear the whine of a 737-X00 blazing across the skies I look up and mentally salute those magnificient men (and women) in their flying machines !
You are right. It could be worse.
You could be like me - an insurance salesman !
So chin up guys, you're doing a fantastic job keeping those birds ( and us) in the air and there are people like me who appreciate
Joles
Well said bmi.
Guys ( and girls) you are talking to a chap who till date regrets not getting good enough marks in school to qualify for flying school ( not that I could afford to even if I had)
And what did I become ? " Senior middle management" in one of my country's top 5 insurance companies after being " middle management" in an equally famous MF after being an equity analyst.
Even now when I hear the whine of a 737-X00 blazing across the skies I look up and mentally salute those magnificient men (and women) in their flying machines !
You are right. It could be worse.
You could be like me - an insurance salesman !
So chin up guys, you're doing a fantastic job keeping those birds ( and us) in the air and there are people like me who appreciate
Joles
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Human touch
Seems to me hands on experience in the job wins every time over automatic brain disengaged mode, also in most professions that I can think of.
With respect to professional status , commercial pilots will retain the respect of lay people regardless of how they fly , because people generally appreciate the specialised job and the big responsibility that comes along with it.
Job satisfaction would be vastly improved with some direct contact with the passengers , what's clearly lacking is some positive feedback from the clients . Sadly don't know how that's possible in this day and age.
My background ; GA pilot and practising dentist 
With respect to professional status , commercial pilots will retain the respect of lay people regardless of how they fly , because people generally appreciate the specialised job and the big responsibility that comes along with it.
Job satisfaction would be vastly improved with some direct contact with the passengers , what's clearly lacking is some positive feedback from the clients . Sadly don't know how that's possible in this day and age.
My background ; GA pilot
and practising dentist
TACHO;
I ask them how safe their car (and they) would be if they "pushed the speed control button" in the driveway and left the car on it's own to drive downtown to work.
If speaking to a professional, say a lawyer, I suggest they send their own version of "autoflight", their legal secretarial staff (who after all, really do all the work, don't they?), in to do the actual criminal trial. After all, it should be easy when all the work is done for them, right?
If speaking with a doctor or a dentist, I bring up the notion of CAM - Computer Assisted Manufacturing, and suggest that if such machines can mill exquisitely detailed machine parts and weld cars together surely with sufficient sophistication (automation), these marvelous machines can open the patient up, follow the program that some desk-doctor has previously entered, R&R and then close?
And surely, with the same brilliant automatic technologies, any machine can drill and fill or in today's "preventative" mode, clean teeth according to standard programming of such tasks? Easy..., morceau d'gateau.
These are rough comparisons with some minor faults but are sufficient to make the point. If they border on cheekiness, so be it. The initial suggestion that our profession is "easy" is about as cheeky as you can get without the suggestion being an outright disrespectul one and appearing stupid.
what is your standard response when people you socialise with come out with such tripe? I mean, we have all had these question
If speaking to a professional, say a lawyer, I suggest they send their own version of "autoflight", their legal secretarial staff (who after all, really do all the work, don't they?), in to do the actual criminal trial. After all, it should be easy when all the work is done for them, right?
If speaking with a doctor or a dentist, I bring up the notion of CAM - Computer Assisted Manufacturing, and suggest that if such machines can mill exquisitely detailed machine parts and weld cars together surely with sufficient sophistication (automation), these marvelous machines can open the patient up, follow the program that some desk-doctor has previously entered, R&R and then close?
And surely, with the same brilliant automatic technologies, any machine can drill and fill or in today's "preventative" mode, clean teeth according to standard programming of such tasks? Easy..., morceau d'gateau.
These are rough comparisons with some minor faults but are sufficient to make the point. If they border on cheekiness, so be it. The initial suggestion that our profession is "easy" is about as cheeky as you can get without the suggestion being an outright disrespectul one and appearing stupid.
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For a start i'd have to leave home for a few a couple of years to train, leaving behind my friends, family and all sorts of unfinished business in my life. Not to mention even if i did get a flying job, after who knows how long, i'd still have to pay 100,000k plus back to my parents (who are willing to loan me it). And all for what, a monitoring job? hmmm.....
PJ2 nice post btw, yeah will have to try that one. with regards to them being 'cheeky', would rather say downright rude. Nothing.... and I do mean nothing, gets my back up more than the unknowledgable making sweeping statements about subjects they know little about, hence my semi-rant above.
The point I was getting at more than anything is to question why, all of a sudden people have this blind faith that all we do is sit monitoring, granted when I am in the cruise We do just tend to sit and watch the autopilot, that said it is because it is a low stimulus phase of the flight where to fly straight and level would be too tiring. However like most computers, the autopilot is no different.... sh!t in...sh!t out... I tell the autopilot what I want it to do, not vice versa.Tacho
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"Been there, done that.... a couple of years you say... oh heaven forbid. you tell me good job that doesnt require I fair bit of time comittment at the very least. There isnt a day when I wake up and think Sh!t I have to go to work, not one, never, even on my birthday. Monitoring job? get out of here. Dont knock it til you've tried it sonny."
"
And of course time commitment is needed to get into any job, but its not measured in years. . . .
rhm
Oops pardon me
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Missed the point
Maybe all you bored Jet Jockies missed the point along the way. If you wanted to become an airline pilot because you like flying then the best flying you will have ever done was on those singles and twins at flight school.
All the hands on stuff on big jets is actively discouraged these days.
I remember fresh new F/O's coming onto the 727 straight from a light twins.
All keen at first but once on line most wanted to move on to more "advanced " types. The 727 was an aeroplane you could pole around the sky and I told them to enjoy every minute of this classic airliner.
When I saw some of them later they agreed that the word pilot is stretching it a bit on modern equipment. More of an operator!!!
I do think that all jet pilots should be made to fly GA to remain qualified. Stick and rudder training never did anyone any harm!!
Coop & Bear
All the hands on stuff on big jets is actively discouraged these days.
I remember fresh new F/O's coming onto the 727 straight from a light twins.
All keen at first but once on line most wanted to move on to more "advanced " types. The 727 was an aeroplane you could pole around the sky and I told them to enjoy every minute of this classic airliner.
When I saw some of them later they agreed that the word pilot is stretching it a bit on modern equipment. More of an operator!!!
I do think that all jet pilots should be made to fly GA to remain qualified. Stick and rudder training never did anyone any harm!!
Coop & Bear
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Why justify yourself to idiots?
Nah.....got fed up with trying to explain the finer intricacies of my job to buffoons when I realised most of them were either jealous or after some sort of reaction.
Now when I hear 'Your job is so easy. You get paid ££££££ to do
all.' I just smile and tell them they are exactly right & thats why I love it! Beats sitting at a desk hoping your cartoon tie might impress the office temp
Usually gets the desired result
Now when I hear 'Your job is so easy. You get paid ££££££ to do
all.' I just smile and tell them they are exactly right & thats why I love it! Beats sitting at a desk hoping your cartoon tie might impress the office temp Usually gets the desired result
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the bit I like about the original post is:
"social incompetence in any setting outside aviation. " Never has a truer word been spoken.
Man do I get pissed off talking about planes planes and more planes.
"social incompetence in any setting outside aviation. " Never has a truer word been spoken.
Man do I get pissed off talking about planes planes and more planes.
you sound like one of my skippers... you know the sort... "the good 'ol days on the trident" (and the inevitable trip down memory lane and the days without glass).
I love my job. Many have asked don't you get bored. Thats why I don't put the Telegraph away to TOD
I love my job. Many have asked don't you get bored. Thats why I don't put the Telegraph away to TOD
-AL@FT-
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Be a pilot, IT-guy or an engineer...
At the end of the day when you go to bed to get some sleep, if you are thinking about tomorrow and feel excited; just want to get up as soon as possible to get back to your work, then that is what I would call "working".
But if you go to sleep and never want to get up and go to work tomorrow, that is what I would call "earning".
A wise guy once said:
"When you are young you give up on your health to earn good, as you get older you give up on your earnings to live good."
And that just explains my thoughts; you can't get anything without giving up on something...
my 2 cents...
At the end of the day when you go to bed to get some sleep, if you are thinking about tomorrow and feel excited; just want to get up as soon as possible to get back to your work, then that is what I would call "working".
But if you go to sleep and never want to get up and go to work tomorrow, that is what I would call "earning".
A wise guy once said:
"When you are young you give up on your health to earn good, as you get older you give up on your earnings to live good."
And that just explains my thoughts; you can't get anything without giving up on something...
my 2 cents...