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Thai authorities introduce new rules for foreign pilots

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Thai authorities introduce new rules for foreign pilots

Old 11th Dec 2007, 01:49
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Thai authorities introduce new rules for foreign pilots

It looks like expat pilots are taking the rap for the recent Phuket accident.
This from todays Bangkok Post.

New tests for foreign pilots in wake of Phuket crash

AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK
The One-Two-Go air tragedy at Phuket airport in September has prompted the Civil Aviation Department to require that all foreign pilots working in Thailand cooperate better with their Thai co-pilots. Deputy director-general of the department Wuthichai Singhamanee said that after the crash which killed 90 people in Phuket, officials observed One-Two-Go pilots during flights and found that the airline's many foreign pilots did not cooperate well with their Thai co-pilots.

The foreign pilots' working culture was different from that of the Thais, they said.

Thai pilots had to get to know each other before working well together, but foreigners did not need to do so, the official said.

The department is about to issue a new regulation requiring all foreign pilots working in Thailand to pass a test on their ability to cooperate with their fellow workers. The Crew Resource Management (CRM) test will focus on cooperation between pilots and co-pilots.

However, Mr Wuthichai denied that poor cooperation between the pilots was a factor behind the Sept 16 crash of the One-Two-Go flight, one of three budget airlines operating in Thailand.

Apart from the CRM test, the department will also require all foreign pilots working in Thailand to be tested on their knowledge of Thai aviation laws. The CRM and the Thai aviation law tests will apply to all foreign pilots working in Thailand.

At present, foreign pilots are only tested on flight simulators.
Mr Wuthichai added that aviation officials would also observe pilots in-flight on all other Thai airlines
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 02:01
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I do love the Thai logic.

If the Thai authorities feel there is a CRM issue that needs to be addressed, why not apply these new regulations to all pilots flying in Thailand?
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 03:27
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I lived in Bangkok for 3 years, and frequently the only explanation is "TIT" (This Is Thailand).

The word "logic" doesn't seem to be in their dictionaries...
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 07:09
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Having some experience of Thailand (non flying though) I think it would be completely fair to say that, whatever the subject matter, they do things entirely their own way. Woe betide anybody who should question it - especially if they are foreign.

Then again, it's their country and they are entitled to run it how they see fit I suppose.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 11:14
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The foreign pilots' working culture was different from that of the Thais, they said.
I'd never have guessed...
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 12:40
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And I did a year in Thailand as well, in 1992 although flying with Expat pilots. That was soon after the Dash 8 accident on Koh Samui, but before the Thai accident into Kathmandu, the Thai A310 accident at Surat Thani and the Thai 737 that burnt on the ground at Don Muang. I'm sure there are others. And they think applying CRM to Expats will help?

I don't yet know the cause of the MD 83 accident in Phuket although I have flown in there loads of times.It's a safe enough airport with no traps. The facts were that he continued an approach in windshear conditions and crashed. Maybe he had no fuel to hold, maybe he was told the weather was good enough for an approach but whatever the reason, I somehow doubt a few days in class will straighten out systemic failures like this!!
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 13:44
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A Captain I used to fly with told of his time in Korea. none of the local pilots turned up for the CRM training. The reason was that 'only western pilots need to be taught about CRM'.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 15:26
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A Very Civil Pilot - good post, it seems that Westerners were so bad at CRM they caused None of the nine fatal accidents that Korean had over a 10 year period killing hundreds of passengers, and the same attitude is obviously very much in evidence in Thailand. Total denial, much as I said in my earlier post.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 18:52
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Thumbs down

total speculation here but: doesn't this ring like PR? I mean, it obviously won't do much good except for the people who get extra training -which even may be a minority given it's only foreigns and IF it really is CRM and not "how to please the local guys" as it sounds. And given that the country is run the way it is -whose general's idea was it this time?- they'll all have the feeling that something has been done about it and feel so much better.
Sometimes ignorance is a blessing, isn't it?
And don't get me started on the nationalistic ego thing -had enough of that by now-...
A.

Last edited by andrijander; 11th Dec 2007 at 18:54. Reason: spilling :)
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 19:17
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And I did a year in Thailand as well, in 1992 although flying with Expat pilots. That was soon after the Dash 8 accident on Koh Samui, but before the Thai accident into Kathmandu, the Thai A310 accident at Surat Thani and the Thai 737 that burnt on the ground at Don Muang. I'm sure there are others. And they think applying CRM to Expats will help?
Seem to remember a 737 stalling and crashing aftertrying to slow down after lying to ATC about position because he thought conflicting traffic was lying.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19870831-0
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 19:32
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I do hope that the Thai authorities tackle the highly dangerous problem of foreign registered aircraft flying into their airspace without the benefit of having any Thai flightdeck crew on board. I assume that the likes of BA, QANTAS, United, etc will have to submit their pilots to the Thai authorities for approval.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 19:39
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On reviewing the Aviation Safety Data base, it would appear that the least of the problems anyone has in Thailand are CRM issues with Expat pilots.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 19:50
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Thai pilots had to get to know each other before working well together, but foreigners did not need to do so.
I'm proud of that. And I think our trainers are and bless'em, the CAA probably are as well. It's called SOP's. Wuthichai Singhamanee unfortunately appears to be the lunatic in charge of the asylum. But I'm sure that his efforts to improve safety have worked. After all, they didn't anybody last week.
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 20:10
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Rush2112
I lived in Bangkok for 3 years, and frequently the only explanation is "TIT" (This Is Thailand).

The word "logic" doesn't seem to be in their dictionaries...
Non-pilot speaking
It's a funny thing but, in Africa, we have a similar saying. When foreigners are perplexed by the way things 'work' we say: "TAB" = That's Africa, Babe!!

Which smiley is best for this ?
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Old 11th Dec 2007, 21:22
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With the election only 12 days away, anything stated by any official is posturing.
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Old 12th Dec 2007, 15:50
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New Rules for Foreign Pilots

After spending many yrs in Thailand as an Offshore Helicopter Captain I find it interesting that what the authorities are saying is that foreigners need to improve their listening skills in the cockpit.
I must agree some of our foreign members have not exactly been diplomats but the majority have been weeded out and sent on their merry way. We have some very fine Thai Captains and FOs in the system.
I think it is important that cultural differences be placed out side of the cockpit. It has been an uphill battle in trying to create more assertive Thai FOs working in an environment of overly assertive foreigners.
In all fairness the majority of our foreign captains are very aware of these cultural problems and deal with them in a most respectful manner.
The Thai Gov must also confront and deal with this very real CRM problem that quite often appears with the Thai FO.
What I am talking about is the sudden silence in the cockpit when WX falls to minimums or there is an emergency. Suddenly the foreign Captain is single pilot with very little input from his 2nd in command.
Bottom line is that CRM is not a one way street. Seek and ye shall receive.
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Old 13th Dec 2007, 03:16
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Interesting point rotorjay
The Thai Gov must also confront and deal with this very real CRM problem that quite often appears with the Thai FO.
What I am talking about is the sudden silence in the cockpit when WX falls to minimums or there is an emergency. Suddenly the foreign Captain is single pilot with very little input from his 2nd in command.
Bottom line is that CRM is not a one way street. Seek and ye shall receive.
I guess the same applies to a Thai FO flying with an older experienced Thai captain. I'm sure this situation occurs elsewhere across SE Asian carriers.
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Old 13th Dec 2007, 06:55
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You are right about that. It was mentioned here years ago that Korean FO's had to buy the Captains presents as part of their culture. (I quite liked that idea myself!!) I don't know if that still exists, but if it does the chances of them speaking up against the Captain in a tight situation must be very limited.
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Old 14th Dec 2007, 15:44
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Flew in Thailand and Malaysia and although the people were great the CRM was dreaful. I flew jump seat with one Malay P1 whose total conversation with P2 was "anti-ice". Meaning anti-ice on or off. When I questioned this in the hotel I was told that the P2 had to earn his respect and he wouldn't bother to listen or speak to him until he had. Complete Ter.

Sadly as a result I'm very careful about which Far East carriers my familly fly with.

BB
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Old 14th Dec 2007, 19:52
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I mean; sadly enough but the Thai pilots are lacking behind the JAA and FAA regulations to be quite frank and on the end of the day, why do you have to have so many Europeans and Americans, Australians etc working as Captains? If the Thai pilots could cover this gap in between that's going on since the 60's there would be no questions or inquiries about who was the Capt and F/o and their respective nationalities.
But most of all; I do laugh in the face of the Thai aviation authority while they are trying to find a scapegoat for every mistake they have ever done regarding flying a commercial plane....It actually puts them down to the level with Indonesians,Phillipinos and other third world countries. And guess what? They are thinking the third world country thoughts, no offence...
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