Turkish MD-83 Crash
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http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=90446
Aviation chief investigated
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
ANKARA – Turkish Daily News
The transportation ministry has initiated an investigation into the conduct of Civil Aviation Authority President Ali Arıduru, which one newspaper yesterday claimed he made the World Focus Aviation pay his hotel bill.
Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım asked the ministerial Inspection Council to investigate the claims.
A report claimed that Arıduru's hotel expenses were paid for by World Focus, which had also rented to Atlasjet the plane that crashed seven kilometers from Isparta last Friday.
The plane crash killed all 57 people on board.
Earlier yesterday Arıduru said the plane had veered off course for a yet unknown reason. He said it was premature to conclude that a pilot's navigation error caused the crash, adding that transcripts of the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder would shed light on the accident.
Aviation chief investigated
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
ANKARA – Turkish Daily News
The transportation ministry has initiated an investigation into the conduct of Civil Aviation Authority President Ali Arıduru, which one newspaper yesterday claimed he made the World Focus Aviation pay his hotel bill.
Transportation Minister Binali Yıldırım asked the ministerial Inspection Council to investigate the claims.
A report claimed that Arıduru's hotel expenses were paid for by World Focus, which had also rented to Atlasjet the plane that crashed seven kilometers from Isparta last Friday.
The plane crash killed all 57 people on board.
Earlier yesterday Arıduru said the plane had veered off course for a yet unknown reason. He said it was premature to conclude that a pilot's navigation error caused the crash, adding that transcripts of the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder would shed light on the accident.
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Flight International (just got it in the post) is reporting that the impact point is just north of the village of Cukurören. Flightglobal (thanks, Mauersegler) is reporting that the impact was 7 nm west of the airport. Cukurören is about 7 nm west of the airport, and about 7nm from the final approach path to Rwy 05 (which is 043°).
MrNosy2, there is nothing wrong with wanting to know that info, and I agree with you that it is essential to figuring out what procedurally or otherwise may have gone wrong.
Looking at the terrain around Cukurören, the ridge extends NNW/SSE, so I would guess (and I emphasise this is a guess!) from the lie of the wreckage in relation to the downslope that he was flying SSE to SE; alternatively NW to NNW when he struck.
Yes MrN2, he was in the wrong place if he was making an approach, and certainly at the wrong altitude because the sector altitude there is 10,000 ft.
PBL
PBL
MrNosy2, there is nothing wrong with wanting to know that info, and I agree with you that it is essential to figuring out what procedurally or otherwise may have gone wrong.
Looking at the terrain around Cukurören, the ridge extends NNW/SSE, so I would guess (and I emphasise this is a guess!) from the lie of the wreckage in relation to the downslope that he was flying SSE to SE; alternatively NW to NNW when he struck.
Yes MrN2, he was in the wrong place if he was making an approach, and certainly at the wrong altitude because the sector altitude there is 10,000 ft.
PBL
PBL
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Every CRM recurrent it is said that many things build up to any accident.
Not just one thing causes this.
Will be interesting to see the final report and read what factors led up to this one.
With the Turkish officials wasting time and resources arguing over hotel bills it might be some time before we hear this information!
Dont want to try and translate some of these things from the Turkish media as my Turkish is not all that good.
Not just one thing causes this.
Will be interesting to see the final report and read what factors led up to this one.
With the Turkish officials wasting time and resources arguing over hotel bills it might be some time before we hear this information!
Dont want to try and translate some of these things from the Turkish media as my Turkish is not all that good.
Last edited by Earl; 5th Dec 2007 at 23:09.
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I'm so glad you know exactly what happened, BoeingMEL. Maybe you were there at the time? Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us, who are still working through only what we see and read?
PBL
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Is this the place?
Well, I play a litle with google earth and maps and I think here ist it:
The pics are aligned with the airport, please see the indication in the upper right corner.
1 is the likely first touch place and 2 the likely wreckage place. North of Cukurören, west from Yesiyurt, both points ca. 13,8 km to the airport.
1: 37° 52' 22.11'' N 30° 12' 03.57'' O 1786 m
2: 37° 53' 17.16'' N 30° 12' 25.77'' O 1415 m
Two pics more, from another point,
The pics are aligned with the airport, please see the indication in the upper right corner.
1 is the likely first touch place and 2 the likely wreckage place. North of Cukurören, west from Yesiyurt, both points ca. 13,8 km to the airport.
1: 37° 52' 22.11'' N 30° 12' 03.57'' O 1786 m
2: 37° 53' 17.16'' N 30° 12' 25.77'' O 1415 m
Two pics more, from another point,
Last edited by Mauersegler; 5th Dec 2007 at 19:16.
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Good work, Mauersegler!
Well out of the approach path at well less than MSA.
Can someone who knows tell us whether there is such a thing as a Contact Approach in Turkey? Or if airlines are allowed to go visual on approach?
PBL
Well out of the approach path at well less than MSA.
Can someone who knows tell us whether there is such a thing as a Contact Approach in Turkey? Or if airlines are allowed to go visual on approach?
PBL
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You are right Earl. Mine isnt too good either but as usual when such things happen 80 percent of what the Turkish media has been broadcasting about this crash is irresponsible B.S. 
They have been using the plight of others to make a big show.
The airing of the funeral and the interviews of family members of the first officer who was a retired general was particularly tasteless.
He was declared a martyr and buried with full military honours.
One should not talk badly about the dead, its tragic enough.
But to make such a show for someone who probably is sharing responsibility for the deaths of almost 60 people and great pain for hundreds more is not right.
There must be a fundamental change in Turkish aviation culture.
They have been using the plight of others to make a big show.
The airing of the funeral and the interviews of family members of the first officer who was a retired general was particularly tasteless.
He was declared a martyr and buried with full military honours.
One should not talk badly about the dead, its tragic enough.
But to make such a show for someone who probably is sharing responsibility for the deaths of almost 60 people and great pain for hundreds more is not right.
There must be a fundamental change in Turkish aviation culture.
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Mauersegler,
Good work (which implies a theory of things gone wrong after the downwind). Check out this picture from a Turkish newspaper, indicating another direction of impact if I interpret it correctly
"Pist" stands for runway, the clipped blue arrow to the right said "lake" in the original newspaper story.
Your pin #1 may be correct, but #2 may have to be on the opposite side of the ridge. On Google Earth, I have also tried to locate the white building on the top of the ridge visible on many news photos without finding it.
Good work (which implies a theory of things gone wrong after the downwind). Check out this picture from a Turkish newspaper, indicating another direction of impact if I interpret it correctly
"Pist" stands for runway, the clipped blue arrow to the right said "lake" in the original newspaper story.
Your pin #1 may be correct, but #2 may have to be on the opposite side of the ridge. On Google Earth, I have also tried to locate the white building on the top of the ridge visible on many news photos without finding it.
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CFIT - Nose First
It appears the aircraft hit the slope nose first, compacting the front fuselage up to the wing root, the massive deceleration causing the tail to tear up and off while the engines parted their mounts, followed by a virtual explosion of the shattered front fuselage over the hilltop chasing the lobbed center section. Peace be with them...
Here is a huge collection of images, including some of the "missing" front fuselage (pieces) and one of part of the cockpit.
-=Machaca=-
Here is a huge collection of images, including some of the "missing" front fuselage (pieces) and one of part of the cockpit.
-=Machaca=-
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thanks md80forum,
I am nearly sure to have the site, this picture "looks" not so similar, but I have seen this picture before and even tried to match the view. This is why the google earth captions are oriented with the airport . One problem is the optical instruments used, also the optical angle ( tele, normal, wide...) Google earth operates with a artificial reconstruction based on very high altitude fotos. This was taken from a helicopter, I think this explains it. But look at the pictures von Milliyet in Airdisaster, I think this seems to match. Of course the GPS coordinates would be very helpful, anybody here with the information?
Google earth has a low resolution at this area and it could be imposible to resolve in this pictures or who knows how old this fire detection tower is, it could be builded in the recent time and the pictures of google be older (I know that from other areas, from one day to other there were houses and other constructions in google earth). But in the pictures of Milliyet you see a very light shinning road that goes down at the divide of the hill (the road for this building...), I think it is in google earth too.
Also a road comes near the impact site. Another cue is the vegetation, if you see the videos from the news, there is a area with relative high trees (for the zone, of course), and you see the fog/clouds that bring the high humidity there. I think this could only posible in a north (+/-) exposed side, otherwise you will find only shrubs. And there are small snow patches near the summit and others scattered there (yes, it is snow, one picture near the road shows one very clearly). The videos give also a better sense of the altitude difference between the two sites, they zoom a lot to get the views. With pictures, and digital cameras you see sometimes "all crispy" pictures and it is a lot harder to grasp the distances. they show also a concave hill side.
I'm to 95% sure, but only gps data would give us really certainty.
I am nearly sure to have the site, this picture "looks" not so similar, but I have seen this picture before and even tried to match the view. This is why the google earth captions are oriented with the airport . One problem is the optical instruments used, also the optical angle ( tele, normal, wide...) Google earth operates with a artificial reconstruction based on very high altitude fotos. This was taken from a helicopter, I think this explains it. But look at the pictures von Milliyet in Airdisaster, I think this seems to match. Of course the GPS coordinates would be very helpful, anybody here with the information?
Google earth has a low resolution at this area and it could be imposible to resolve in this pictures or who knows how old this fire detection tower is, it could be builded in the recent time and the pictures of google be older (I know that from other areas, from one day to other there were houses and other constructions in google earth). But in the pictures of Milliyet you see a very light shinning road that goes down at the divide of the hill (the road for this building...), I think it is in google earth too.
Also a road comes near the impact site. Another cue is the vegetation, if you see the videos from the news, there is a area with relative high trees (for the zone, of course), and you see the fog/clouds that bring the high humidity there. I think this could only posible in a north (+/-) exposed side, otherwise you will find only shrubs. And there are small snow patches near the summit and others scattered there (yes, it is snow, one picture near the road shows one very clearly). The videos give also a better sense of the altitude difference between the two sites, they zoom a lot to get the views. With pictures, and digital cameras you see sometimes "all crispy" pictures and it is a lot harder to grasp the distances. they show also a concave hill side.
I'm to 95% sure, but only gps data would give us really certainty.
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Well here I am reading about this obviously tragic incident on the RUMOUR network where speculation and conjecture are part of the RUMOUR framework, and where any idea however ridiculous is valid until proven otherwise.
Then sadly I come across the same 'smart arse' (sorry I cannot bring myself to call you Captains) pilots telling everyone what they should and shouldn't post.
GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR A****. You are clearly not regarded as important within your own company (conjecture) perhaps even at home (speculation) as you have to make your presence felt here and it is quite frankly boring. (fact)
Speculation gives rise to discussion and that is where answers come from, if you don't like it DON'T READ IT.
Then sadly I come across the same 'smart arse' (sorry I cannot bring myself to call you Captains) pilots telling everyone what they should and shouldn't post.
GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR A****. You are clearly not regarded as important within your own company (conjecture) perhaps even at home (speculation) as you have to make your presence felt here and it is quite frankly boring. (fact)
Speculation gives rise to discussion and that is where answers come from, if you don't like it DON'T READ IT.
Last edited by pilotbear; 6th Dec 2007 at 12:56. Reason: spelling
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Attn.: Accident Investigators
Thank you for your assistance and expertise in your analysis of circumstances and reasons for this accident.
xxx
Being too busy re-learning how to fly airplanes, what might cause accidents, and CFIT impact geometry and structural damage, if not navigation accuracy, I find myself unable to furher participate in Pprune forums.
xxx
... and soon to retire anyway...
Happy contrails
(s) BelArgUSA
Manager Flight Training
Aerolineas Argentinas
(another "Cowboy" - we call ourselves "Gauchos" here)
xxx
Being too busy re-learning how to fly airplanes, what might cause accidents, and CFIT impact geometry and structural damage, if not navigation accuracy, I find myself unable to furher participate in Pprune forums.
xxx
... and soon to retire anyway...
Happy contrails
(s) BelArgUSA
Manager Flight Training
Aerolineas Argentinas
(another "Cowboy" - we call ourselves "Gauchos" here)
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ILS perfect solution for CFIT ?
Checkmate 707:
There is a cultural misunderstanding, that has nothing to do with aviation.
The word "sehit"(turkish: martyr) may be used not only for someone who has sacrificied himself for a cause, also for some one who has died while performing his duty. In this case you don't need to be a pilot or a retired general to be called as sehit. You might be a flight attendant or a passenger who is on a business trip.
You are right about the media, some of the scientists died are working for years in important projects, but they got attention only after the crash.
One of the claims in the media is that with ILS such accidents would never happen.
Assuming the crash reason was CFIT, is this claim true?
well if you don't guessed it yet I am just turkish a passenger who has booked on Atlas Jet to a flight to Antalya. ( ILS installed. )
There is a cultural misunderstanding, that has nothing to do with aviation.
The word "sehit"(turkish: martyr) may be used not only for someone who has sacrificied himself for a cause, also for some one who has died while performing his duty. In this case you don't need to be a pilot or a retired general to be called as sehit. You might be a flight attendant or a passenger who is on a business trip.
You are right about the media, some of the scientists died are working for years in important projects, but they got attention only after the crash.
One of the claims in the media is that with ILS such accidents would never happen.
Assuming the crash reason was CFIT, is this claim true?
well if you don't guessed it yet I am just turkish a passenger who has booked on Atlas Jet to a flight to Antalya. ( ILS installed. )
Warning Toxic!
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Well I had decided I had made my last post here, the idiots have chased out the professionals, but this thread had gone so totally out of control I can't believe it. A bunch of self appointed amateur investigators ghoulishly turning over what evidence they can get from grainy phone cameras? Would it help to have been allowed to peek into the body bags? All this analysis of the last moments of the occupants in perverted and prurient, and you should be ashamed of yourselves. It is not what happened after contact with terrain that is important- all that matters are the events leading up to first contact, and why......understand? Not how they died.
So thank you for the verdicts and lectures from people with no practical experience. It will be borne in mind.....not. The only lessons to come out of this accident will be for the professionals to find ways of it not recurring, not for ghouls to go photogaphing the cockpit and hunting the engines. A foolish and perverted obsession with some of you.
So thank you for the verdicts and lectures from people with no practical experience. It will be borne in mind.....not. The only lessons to come out of this accident will be for the professionals to find ways of it not recurring, not for ghouls to go photogaphing the cockpit and hunting the engines. A foolish and perverted obsession with some of you.