Two pilots allegedly fell asleep during red-eye flight
Fatigue is perfect for the aviation authorities.
Fatigue has never been found during an autopsy.
As for US air carrier accidents, the NTSB never found the courage to list it as the primary cause until a Kallitta DC-8 crashed after an all-night flight at Naval Air Station Git'mo Bay, Cuba.
Until tragedies happened with US revenue passengers at LIT involving an MD-83, the FAA never required any pre-designated rest period during each 24 consecutive hours for standby flightcrew.
Having a brand-new FO with a Base Chief Pilot also created a situation whereby the Chief Pilot's judgement seemed not to have been questioned, no matter how 'mission-oriented' the guy was after a 12-hour duty day.
Civilian pilots often forget that most of us are NOT on a vital mission (i.e. rescue people at sea, resupply Khe Sanh or protect a Special Forces outpost during a siege etc)-they are operating an aircraft in order to make money for the stockholders.
Generally speaking, why should you be strictly 'mission-oriented', in order to get into the destination unless you mistakenly burned up too much fuel to safely make it to a 'suitable alternate' airport?
Fatigue has never been found during an autopsy.
As for US air carrier accidents, the NTSB never found the courage to list it as the primary cause until a Kallitta DC-8 crashed after an all-night flight at Naval Air Station Git'mo Bay, Cuba.
Until tragedies happened with US revenue passengers at LIT involving an MD-83, the FAA never required any pre-designated rest period during each 24 consecutive hours for standby flightcrew.
Having a brand-new FO with a Base Chief Pilot also created a situation whereby the Chief Pilot's judgement seemed not to have been questioned, no matter how 'mission-oriented' the guy was after a 12-hour duty day.
Civilian pilots often forget that most of us are NOT on a vital mission (i.e. rescue people at sea, resupply Khe Sanh or protect a Special Forces outpost during a siege etc)-they are operating an aircraft in order to make money for the stockholders.
Generally speaking, why should you be strictly 'mission-oriented', in order to get into the destination unless you mistakenly burned up too much fuel to safely make it to a 'suitable alternate' airport?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 3rd Nov 2007 at 04:37.
Junkflyer:
I've chatted with two pilots who were 727 Captains at Champion, others flew years ago at Connie (Learjets) etc among many others. It sounds like few Captains had the backbone to tell Dispatch that 13-15 hours on duty was enough. One guy said that Dispatch yelled at him over the phone when he decided not to fly an extra leg and get the plane approaching a Florida city refueled and fly back to PHL or such.
As for the apparent nature of many bosses, never mind worrying about keeping your job if a Learjet engine flames out and you decide to 'declare an emergency' at FL 350...the boss would not be happy at all about the paper-work required for the FAA, and documents on engine maintenance...most pilots simply demanded a lower altitude with 'Center' and did a restart. In one episode, all three DC-8 crewmembers and the mechanic stood together, in order to convince Mr. Kallitta that there was no elevator hydraulic pressure and the plane would not rotate unless repaired.
One lady pilot told me that a young, intimidated Captain she worked with years ago somewhere else briefly considered a 1-engine takeoff in a small 2-engine cargo jet! The other engine would not start, and he was almost afraid to create problems by grounding the jet!
I've chatted with two pilots who were 727 Captains at Champion, others flew years ago at Connie (Learjets) etc among many others. It sounds like few Captains had the backbone to tell Dispatch that 13-15 hours on duty was enough. One guy said that Dispatch yelled at him over the phone when he decided not to fly an extra leg and get the plane approaching a Florida city refueled and fly back to PHL or such.
As for the apparent nature of many bosses, never mind worrying about keeping your job if a Learjet engine flames out and you decide to 'declare an emergency' at FL 350...the boss would not be happy at all about the paper-work required for the FAA, and documents on engine maintenance...most pilots simply demanded a lower altitude with 'Center' and did a restart. In one episode, all three DC-8 crewmembers and the mechanic stood together, in order to convince Mr. Kallitta that there was no elevator hydraulic pressure and the plane would not rotate unless repaired.
One lady pilot told me that a young, intimidated Captain she worked with years ago somewhere else briefly considered a 1-engine takeoff in a small 2-engine cargo jet! The other engine would not start, and he was almost afraid to create problems by grounding the jet!
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Agree with 411a in this case.
It is better to have a crew member take 10 or 30 for that matter, than 2 or 3 flight deck crew members all battling to stay awake for 8 to 10 hours at a time. All trying to stay awake in the above scenario increases the chances of "all crew nodding off" at once. Seen it happen myself, as battling to stay awake, is a source of fatigue, in itself.
At least when a crew member has woken up from a nap, you have at least one crew member relatively "fresh" and this has to be a great asset should there be an emergency.
It is better to have a crew member take 10 or 30 for that matter, than 2 or 3 flight deck crew members all battling to stay awake for 8 to 10 hours at a time. All trying to stay awake in the above scenario increases the chances of "all crew nodding off" at once. Seen it happen myself, as battling to stay awake, is a source of fatigue, in itself.
At least when a crew member has woken up from a nap, you have at least one crew member relatively "fresh" and this has to be a great asset should there be an emergency.
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There is hardly any Asian airline that has a proper rest policy in it's books.
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It's as simple as 411 says. Agree between you if you want or need a nap.
To the CC, I just tell them that there will be one or other of us taking a power nap, don't ding on the call button, but just talk on the interphone (which is being monitored), and I'll answer, if they really feel in the need to do the 20 minute check. Mostly, I'll call them just to let them know that all is well.
It's another situation that SOPs gallore can be written for, but is best sorted with common sense. If comon sense doesn't start off by recognising that it is good practice, then all the SOPs in the world are not actually going to make life any better, just more tiring.
To the CC, I just tell them that there will be one or other of us taking a power nap, don't ding on the call button, but just talk on the interphone (which is being monitored), and I'll answer, if they really feel in the need to do the 20 minute check. Mostly, I'll call them just to let them know that all is well.
It's another situation that SOPs gallore can be written for, but is best sorted with common sense. If comon sense doesn't start off by recognising that it is good practice, then all the SOPs in the world are not actually going to make life any better, just more tiring.
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We have a bloke who used to fly with an asian airline. Their longhaul procedure was to tell the Captain at 10,000 that it was now okay for him to hit the bunk while they took care of things. The FO and two SO's then took turns minding the store until TOD. Only problem they had was when the Captain, fully rested, would require them to join him shopping outstation. How's that for a proper rest policy not in the books?
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We have all driven a car beyond our ability to stay awake and the same thing happens in the cockpit. In a perfect world you would go to work and fly fully refreshed and ready for a 12 hr duty day but some of the time that doesn't happen. It is much safer to take a nap than tough it out and try to stay awake. Personally I flew planes that flew during the day but when forced to fly all nighters when junior called in sick a lot. I just could not be alert on all nighters and that is not safe. I know it is unfair for the reserve guy. I don't know how the all nighter guys do it.
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AIRBUBBA
" Most modern Boeings n airbusses too have a feature which requires Pilot Attention if theres no input in the FMC "
LMAO LMFAO
Are you for real ????????????
hahahahahahahahahahaha I gotta share this one with the boys
lol
" Most modern Boeings n airbusses too have a feature which requires Pilot Attention if theres no input in the FMC "
LMAO LMFAO
Are you for real ????????????
hahahahahahahahahahaha I gotta share this one with the boys
lol
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I remember an article in Playboy back in the Seventies about this topic. they cited a TWA 747 crew who slept half way across the Atlantic and those were the days of three man cockpits !
I could launch off with a very Seventies sexist joke about the flight attendants calling every 15 minutes but I shall refrain.
I could launch off with a very Seventies sexist joke about the flight attendants calling every 15 minutes but I shall refrain.
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I dunno what all the fuss is about... both pilots asleep happens and there are approved procedures to help alleviate it.
Click the following link to the UK CAA Safety Regulation Group: A Review of In-flight Napping Strategies (Updated 2003)
Click the following link to the UK CAA Safety Regulation Group: A Review of In-flight Napping Strategies (Updated 2003)
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The 747-400 has a Crew Alertness Monitor. It will generate an Eicas message "Pilot input" required when no input has been detected. A press of the FMC, a brief click of the microphone, or an auto-pilot input clears the message.
If the message is not cleared, ie u are sleeping. The message gives and aural warning, and if it is still ignored I think it gives a constant aural warning. Not too sure tbh. As to date I have never seen it go beyond "pilot input".
So far. :P
If the message is not cleared, ie u are sleeping. The message gives and aural warning, and if it is still ignored I think it gives a constant aural warning. Not too sure tbh. As to date I have never seen it go beyond "pilot input".
So far. :P
Last edited by L337; 5th Nov 2007 at 06:43. Reason: spelling
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Hi Guys,
I'm glad that this subject has been raised. I am working towards a professional flying career but havent got as far as the MCC course yet! I was always worried about that aspect of the job - is it generally accepted for non-augmented crews to do the power nap thing (so long as one person stays awake)? Do airlines acknowledge that this may, at times, be necessary? I read the CAA document and it seems that they accept this practice under certain circumstances...
I just imagine a 3am start going from Manchester to calcutta or some other far flung destination - how does one stay awake through the monotony of the cruise?
I work 24 hour shifts in my current job (yes, I know it is against EWTD - we're working on that!), and I know how debilitating fatigue can be....
Thanks guys!
P.S. before some pundit says "if you dont like long hours, dont do the job" - I know about the long hours etc - but I like flying!!!!
I'm glad that this subject has been raised. I am working towards a professional flying career but havent got as far as the MCC course yet!
I was always worried about that aspect of the job - is it generally accepted for non-augmented crews to do the power nap thing (so long as one person stays awake)? Do airlines acknowledge that this may, at times, be necessary? I read the CAA document and it seems that they accept this practice under certain circumstances...I just imagine a 3am start going from Manchester to calcutta or some other far flung destination - how does one stay awake through the monotony of the cruise?
I work 24 hour shifts in my current job (yes, I know it is against EWTD - we're working on that!), and I know how debilitating fatigue can be....
Thanks guys!
P.S. before some pundit says "if you dont like long hours, dont do the job" - I know about the long hours etc - but I like flying!!!!
There is no doubt that this occurs from time to time, some people fall asleep very easily and others don't. Personally I simply cannot nod off unless lying flat and basically in bed, believe me I have tried. However I have flown with (and know outside flying) some people who can fall asleep with incredible ease and are gone in a few seconds without even knowing it and seem powerless to stop it. Put two people like that together and the chances that both will be asleep at some point on a long night flight are pretty high I should think.
Last edited by Max Angle; 5th Nov 2007 at 16:39.