Air Europa 738 at Katowice?
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Ptkay:
you should post your last question on some lawyers' forum or perhaps ask that specific reptile's source for answer, who cares here who's going to pay for it? Everybody is alive and that matters and I guess that some people here are interested why it happend...
Once again, please, this is aviation forum, not a place for sensational questions, thank you!
you should post your last question on some lawyers' forum or perhaps ask that specific reptile's source for answer, who cares here who's going to pay for it? Everybody is alive and that matters and I guess that some people here are interested why it happend...
Once again, please, this is aviation forum, not a place for sensational questions, thank you!
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Autoland & Cat 2/3 are different things. One is a procedure the other weather conditions. Naturally if the weather conditions are below Cat 1 an autoland is often required; (depends on operator's and a/c limitations).
An autoland on a Cat 1 instillation is allowed, but generally the conditions need to be visual as defined by the operator. The reason for allowing it is to allow the pilots to maintain their LVO currency, and the reason for visual is so that you can assertain before, and at the latest, 200' if the a/c is stable and in a good position to allow an autoland. If not, then disconnect and manually land. I know about the nose up trim, but this is the procedure that has been allowed by all airlines I have worked for.
To fly an autoland (Cat 2 or 3) approach in marginal CAT 1 conditions is to achieve a lower DH. However, this would require the runway to be authorised and LVP procedures to be in place. If the Rwy was so authorised and all criterea met, than this would be sound airmanship and give the best chance to achieve a landing. If the Rwy was Cat 1 only, and the conditons at or near Cat 1, then the best that could be done is a coupled approach to Cat 1 DA and manual landing.
I thought one important point in the spec difference between Cat 1 & Cat2/3 installations was the response time to power loss and switch over to the SBY power systems. For Cat 2/3 the time is an order of magnitude faster than Cat 1.
An autoland on a Cat 1 instillation is allowed, but generally the conditions need to be visual as defined by the operator. The reason for allowing it is to allow the pilots to maintain their LVO currency, and the reason for visual is so that you can assertain before, and at the latest, 200' if the a/c is stable and in a good position to allow an autoland. If not, then disconnect and manually land. I know about the nose up trim, but this is the procedure that has been allowed by all airlines I have worked for.
To fly an autoland (Cat 2 or 3) approach in marginal CAT 1 conditions is to achieve a lower DH. However, this would require the runway to be authorised and LVP procedures to be in place. If the Rwy was so authorised and all criterea met, than this would be sound airmanship and give the best chance to achieve a landing. If the Rwy was Cat 1 only, and the conditons at or near Cat 1, then the best that could be done is a coupled approach to Cat 1 DA and manual landing.
I thought one important point in the spec difference between Cat 1 & Cat2/3 installations was the response time to power loss and switch over to the SBY power systems. For Cat 2/3 the time is an order of magnitude faster than Cat 1.
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Sorry to disagree with a few of you but. . . unless the glidepath is promulgated as being unsuitable for coupled approaches below a certain height ( which as I previously stated it SOMETIMES is) there is no good reason NOT to take advantage of A- The increased availability of monitoring capacity for both pilots B - The reduced possibility of "ducking under" after you disconnect, or indeed that old tendency to "uncorrect the drift" C - no eye adaption required, from gloom and crap, to OW that is bright 4 - Reduced chance of smacking it in big time due to poor depth perception 5 - Less need to select landing lights until landing assured ( as you don't need to really see the runway surface as such) so more chance of actually seeing the approach/RW lights at minima. 6 - Less individual variation in performance (autopilot versus humans). . . if you work , as I do, in a company with a lot of inexperienced guys you will appreciate this one. 7 - Go-Around can be flown automatically, again , safer, more positive, much more consistent. 8 - If you are lucky enough to be performing approach on a CAT 2 or CAT3 runway and you briefed adequately, the only consideration required in the event the RVR worsens on approach are that you have LVP protection and that you rebrief the minima. The only disadvantage ( if you can call it one) is that you must be aware ( not a bad idea for any approach in crap vis) whether ATC is providing ( or even if they exist ) LVP'S , whether there are any specific limitations on plates or Notams for GP, and to be aware of what you actually NEED to see to call "LAND ", but that is only Airmanship and can hardly be seen as a demerit.With 19 European Winters in Command of an Autoland -capable aircraft I have made enough landing's in marginal Cat 1 conditions ( and at the same time felt equal measures of admiration/trepidation for colleagues who disconnected and landed manually) to know what is safer and less stressful. All the F/O's I have had the pleasure to fly with have commented that they have preferred this to what they had done with Capt A.N. Other the night before, so this is not my own obstinate opinion. If you respect the rules and know the limitations of the ground/ aircraft equipment it strikes me as a no-brainer, it's what Mr Boeing fitted it for.
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to ptkay
i am very sure you are not a pilot, because they are transporting people at 30000m of altitude every day and having the responsability of their passengers lives all the time . i don´t think they want to put all this lives including their owns under risk for nothing. I am not a pilot but i have a very important respect for them because they have a very risky job. they dont need people like you speculating what happened that day, there are already people making the investigation let the profesional do the work and then talk all you want.
Any way i have being reading information about this company and have so many prices of security. all the aircrafts are almost new.
give the pilots the chance of be professional, don´t blame them before the investigation
Any way i have being reading information about this company and have so many prices of security. all the aircrafts are almost new.
give the pilots the chance of be professional, don´t blame them before the investigation
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If they are flying at 30000m I think they are risking more than a few lives. Most 737-800's that were totalled this last 12 months were pretty much factory fresh ,so no guarantee's there amigo, but I agree, speculation is silly " INFORMED" discussion can be educational though.
as i said i am not a pilot, so i have this stupid mistakes
A previous poster who says he works for Air Europa says there were two captains and an F/O assigned to the flight. This suggests this may have been a check flight or training and that, at least originally, the TRI was sitting on the jump seat. I do not know how often Air Europa fly in to Katowice, but it is probably not a very familiar airport for this crew.
Whilst Captplaystation's input is certainly educational it seems unlikely the crew were performing an autoland. However presupposing you were conducting a marginal CAT 1 approach into an unfamiliar airport, would he clarify exactly what he means by promulgated and where he would check this in the middle of the night in the cockpit. Jepp charts, Notams and ATIS spring to mind, but being sure something is allowed is always tricky.
I would be surprised if the CVR does not contain very loud warnings such as glideslope / sink rate etc. and the crew is regretting not going around from what had obviously become a non stabilised approach. Typical swiss cheese with the holes all lined up; middle of the night, tired from a long day, unfamiliar airport, marginal weather and then a dive for the deck! Just speculation, but a very dangerous situation.
Whilst Captplaystation's input is certainly educational it seems unlikely the crew were performing an autoland. However presupposing you were conducting a marginal CAT 1 approach into an unfamiliar airport, would he clarify exactly what he means by promulgated and where he would check this in the middle of the night in the cockpit. Jepp charts, Notams and ATIS spring to mind, but being sure something is allowed is always tricky.
I would be surprised if the CVR does not contain very loud warnings such as glideslope / sink rate etc. and the crew is regretting not going around from what had obviously become a non stabilised approach. Typical swiss cheese with the holes all lined up; middle of the night, tired from a long day, unfamiliar airport, marginal weather and then a dive for the deck! Just speculation, but a very dangerous situation.
Last edited by lederhosen; 1st Nov 2007 at 16:10.
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to boeingir
I am a pilot, not a commercial one, and not very experienced,
but I am a pilot, and I am here to learn.
I appreciate your patriotism against the airline, its pilots and the country.
But lets talk about facts (as you wish it):
this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft
almost killed 114 of the soldiers from my country.
I have the right to know why for two reasons:
1. These were my people in danger there
2. We have to know, to avoid such cases in the future
I can assure you, I will be reading the final report of
the Polish Accident Commission (probably earlier than you)
but sometimes, before the final report is ready
the information should be made public, if
imminent safety flaws are discovered.
Please, read my posts carefully !
I was trying to pass the bits and pieces of information
available here to the public, not suggesting any conclusions.
There might have been a flaw in the ILS system as well
as in the a/c or anywhere else.
I am searching here in this forum for professional
and competent comments to these bits and pieces
of information and not such "patriotic" arrogant
attacks like yours.
but I am a pilot, and I am here to learn.
I appreciate your patriotism against the airline, its pilots and the country.
But lets talk about facts (as you wish it):
this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft
almost killed 114 of the soldiers from my country.
I have the right to know why for two reasons:
1. These were my people in danger there
2. We have to know, to avoid such cases in the future
I can assure you, I will be reading the final report of
the Polish Accident Commission (probably earlier than you)
but sometimes, before the final report is ready
the information should be made public, if
imminent safety flaws are discovered.
Please, read my posts carefully !
I was trying to pass the bits and pieces of information
available here to the public, not suggesting any conclusions.
There might have been a flaw in the ILS system as well
as in the a/c or anywhere else.
I am searching here in this forum for professional
and competent comments to these bits and pieces
of information and not such "patriotic" arrogant
attacks like yours.
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Hi Ptkay,
I was reading all your posts related to the AEA accident, until... you said something related to navaids. An ILS flaw or something like this in Katowice, as I can see .
Please, could you be so kind to give me more detaildinformation about the navaids installed in that airport, or where to find it ?.
I´m interested in this subjects, because ( sorry, despite this is a pilot's forum ) I´m an ATSEP, and I want to know how is the situation of our colleagues in Katowice, and all related of it's possible implication in the accident.
Thanks a lot in advance.
I was reading all your posts related to the AEA accident, until... you said something related to navaids. An ILS flaw or something like this in Katowice, as I can see .
Please, could you be so kind to give me more detaildinformation about the navaids installed in that airport, or where to find it ?.
I´m interested in this subjects, because ( sorry, despite this is a pilot's forum ) I´m an ATSEP, and I want to know how is the situation of our colleagues in Katowice, and all related of it's possible implication in the accident.
Thanks a lot in advance.
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to ptkay
nobody almost kill 140 people
there was not a crash accident was an incident. any way Who is the arrogant? you take all the chances you have to write comments only about the crew,
they were drank or they were landing under minimuns. etc. all i said is to let the investigators do their job. and congratulations if you can read the inform before everybody.
you are very lucky because if you would be the pilot may be you would like someone like me defendig the profesionality of your profession.
there was not a crash accident was an incident. any way Who is the arrogant? you take all the chances you have to write comments only about the crew,
they were drank or they were landing under minimuns. etc. all i said is to let the investigators do their job. and congratulations if you can read the inform before everybody.
you are very lucky because if you would be the pilot may be you would like someone like me defendig the profesionality of your profession.
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Ptkay, Wouldn't it be a good idea if in 'future' - The polish transport their own people, in their own machines, In their own country?
Maybe if this was done instead, We may not be talking now?
Surely they have their own transport?
I bet AEA wish they never took on the contract now?
Why charter a Spanish Airline?
Like a previous post said - Not everything is about money?
Anyway, Best regards.
Maybe if this was done instead, We may not be talking now?
Surely they have their own transport?
I bet AEA wish they never took on the contract now?
Why charter a Spanish Airline?
Like a previous post said - Not everything is about money?
Anyway, Best regards.
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Hello again.
I think that we must wait to a Polish Civil Aviation Authority preliminary report, or something similar from the Polish Air Navigation Service provider or by AEA itself. All the rest can be only classified as unfounded suppositions.
Something said that despite of the damages, nobody was injured. Yes, he was right.
And that's all, by the moment !!.
Ok, not all !!.
We must learn, learn about the contributing factors to the accident ( Yes, it was an accident, according Spanish laws RD 21/2003, substantial damage to an aircraft ), and know how to prevent this lethal combination who was about to kill more than one hundred people.
Whatever the problem were: Human factors, training policies, aircraft maintenance, as well as ground equipment... wathever, we as proffesionals, must keep in mind that this situation, can't must happen never again!.
And now... yes, that's all!.
See you.
I think that we must wait to a Polish Civil Aviation Authority preliminary report, or something similar from the Polish Air Navigation Service provider or by AEA itself. All the rest can be only classified as unfounded suppositions.
Something said that despite of the damages, nobody was injured. Yes, he was right.
And that's all, by the moment !!.
Ok, not all !!.
We must learn, learn about the contributing factors to the accident ( Yes, it was an accident, according Spanish laws RD 21/2003, substantial damage to an aircraft ), and know how to prevent this lethal combination who was about to kill more than one hundred people.
Whatever the problem were: Human factors, training policies, aircraft maintenance, as well as ground equipment... wathever, we as proffesionals, must keep in mind that this situation, can't must happen never again!.
And now... yes, that's all!.
See you.
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To Ptkay with all respect
Look Ptkay (and people like him), I am F/O at AEA and really did not want to write here, because I prefere to wait until I get more information about what happened even having info that you don't have and having talked to our ingeneers and pilots about the flight, airport, damage to the aircraft etc... Obviously you are not a pilot, forgive me if I tell you, but PPL doesn`t make you one, at least not to write things like you have written. Your comments about if the crew smelled like alcohol just a few hours after the incident is so sad and ugly. Even if you heared it from others, something like that is very serious and don,t worry, that is one of the things investigators will look first, as they did!! Your comments like:
"To survive Lebanon and die on landing at home"
"I doubt they were on time there to do the breath analyse" are so sensational, You look more like a reporter looking for a sensational story to tell than a pilot even PPL. You said you are here to learn, well let me tell you in my opinion you should spend less time writing in forums and spend more learning. Take you performance and meteorologic books, you will lern more there than in one hundred years reading in pilot forums. And once you are a profesioal pilot working for an airline you may read books like "The limits of expertice". Much better than learning from speculations.
You also replyed to boingir:
I appreciate your patriotism against the airline, its pilots and the country.
But lets talk about facts (as you wish it):
this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft
almost killed 114 of the soldiers from my country.
I have the right to know why for two reasons:
1. These were my people in danger there
2. We have to know, to avoid such cases in the future
First I have to say the tone and way you reply show no respect for the pilots and my company, as I said before, I don,t know exactly what happened, But have you thinked about, taht this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft may have saved the 114 soldiers from your contry. It looks like you allready judged for your own, blameing against pilots. This is why I told you with all respects that for me you are not a pilot. No prefesional pilot would do something you do, putting in doubt Pilot actuation without knowing what happend. For me all pilot colleagues are professionals unless evidence proves otherwise. Second, it looks like you took it personal saying it were your people in there, you forgot that there were also other crew members onboard apart from the pilots. They are less than your people, don`t think so. Also you look like you forget that the pilots are the frist ones that want to do a save flight.
Third, you have no more right than anyone else to know what happend, I allready told you why. And fourth if you really want to know, to avoid such things, wait until final report!! Stop speculating. Obviously you had time to take rumors from everywhere but didn`t have time to search a little about AEA. If you had You would probably shut up. I even will not tell you about our company, because my opinion might be seen as unparcial but you would wonder! As I allready said, dont`t take it to personal, maybe it is because of your unexperience, your age maybe, or your desire of knowledge, but stop speculating, take care with your comments, and if you really want to learn, take your aeronautical books out and work hard on them, and maybe one time you get to be a professional pilot and understand that talking is easy, but sometimes you must be there...
Be patient and wait for the final report (you will be one of the first ones as you said!)
And now just to clear some things, The fact that there where two captains and one F/O is becouse it was a long night flight, one of the captains is to reinforce the crew to avoid fatigue, it was no instruction flight. All crew members are well experienced pilots.
"To survive Lebanon and die on landing at home"
"I doubt they were on time there to do the breath analyse" are so sensational, You look more like a reporter looking for a sensational story to tell than a pilot even PPL. You said you are here to learn, well let me tell you in my opinion you should spend less time writing in forums and spend more learning. Take you performance and meteorologic books, you will lern more there than in one hundred years reading in pilot forums. And once you are a profesioal pilot working for an airline you may read books like "The limits of expertice". Much better than learning from speculations.
You also replyed to boingir:
I appreciate your patriotism against the airline, its pilots and the country.
But lets talk about facts (as you wish it):
this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft
almost killed 114 of the soldiers from my country.
I have the right to know why for two reasons:
1. These were my people in danger there
2. We have to know, to avoid such cases in the future
First I have to say the tone and way you reply show no respect for the pilots and my company, as I said before, I don,t know exactly what happened, But have you thinked about, taht this excellent airline, with excellent pilots, and excellent aircraft may have saved the 114 soldiers from your contry. It looks like you allready judged for your own, blameing against pilots. This is why I told you with all respects that for me you are not a pilot. No prefesional pilot would do something you do, putting in doubt Pilot actuation without knowing what happend. For me all pilot colleagues are professionals unless evidence proves otherwise. Second, it looks like you took it personal saying it were your people in there, you forgot that there were also other crew members onboard apart from the pilots. They are less than your people, don`t think so. Also you look like you forget that the pilots are the frist ones that want to do a save flight.
Third, you have no more right than anyone else to know what happend, I allready told you why. And fourth if you really want to know, to avoid such things, wait until final report!! Stop speculating. Obviously you had time to take rumors from everywhere but didn`t have time to search a little about AEA. If you had You would probably shut up. I even will not tell you about our company, because my opinion might be seen as unparcial but you would wonder! As I allready said, dont`t take it to personal, maybe it is because of your unexperience, your age maybe, or your desire of knowledge, but stop speculating, take care with your comments, and if you really want to learn, take your aeronautical books out and work hard on them, and maybe one time you get to be a professional pilot and understand that talking is easy, but sometimes you must be there...
Be patient and wait for the final report (you will be one of the first ones as you said!)
And now just to clear some things, The fact that there where two captains and one F/O is becouse it was a long night flight, one of the captains is to reinforce the crew to avoid fatigue, it was no instruction flight. All crew members are well experienced pilots.
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@Ferrobus
Katowice has 2 NDBs (at 0.5NM and 4NM final rwy 27).
Runway 27: Cat I ILS with OM and MM (no DME) with 3.2 degrees glideslope. Full Approach lights, but no PAPI at this direction.
Runway 09: no radio aids, simplified approach lights and PAPI (3 degrees).
Runway has only edge lights (60m apart), no centerline nor touchdown zone lighting. Area in vicinity is very flat, so radio altimeter should give good readings through entire approach. Airfield elevation 994ft.
Radar service is not provided for the approach phase (Krakow Approach covers the Katowice until about 5000 due fade area), and aerodrome is under procedural control. At night (23-7 LMT) radar approach service is not provided at all (not enough staffing), and procedural approach service is provided by the tower up to FL095.
About 4-5 years ago ILS GS didn't made the flight-tests and it was suspended for about more half a year - unprecision LLZ approaches were in use. It was 2.9 degree glidepath then. It was finally raised to 3.2 degrees and passed all the checks. There was also a time (3-4 years ago) when some guy was unawarely using frequency close to GS transmitter for his private radio talks, which gave some wrong indications reported by crews. He got tracked down within a week. Since then there was no known to me problems with ILS.
You can check Polish AIP online (free registration required) at http://www.ais.pansa.pl/aip/
If you need some more information, please ask. However I'm not going to give away any details of the accident itself until it is officially verified. Just don't want to spread the rumours on the rumours forum ;)
Katowice has 2 NDBs (at 0.5NM and 4NM final rwy 27).
Runway 27: Cat I ILS with OM and MM (no DME) with 3.2 degrees glideslope. Full Approach lights, but no PAPI at this direction.
Runway 09: no radio aids, simplified approach lights and PAPI (3 degrees).
Runway has only edge lights (60m apart), no centerline nor touchdown zone lighting. Area in vicinity is very flat, so radio altimeter should give good readings through entire approach. Airfield elevation 994ft.
Radar service is not provided for the approach phase (Krakow Approach covers the Katowice until about 5000 due fade area), and aerodrome is under procedural control. At night (23-7 LMT) radar approach service is not provided at all (not enough staffing), and procedural approach service is provided by the tower up to FL095.
About 4-5 years ago ILS GS didn't made the flight-tests and it was suspended for about more half a year - unprecision LLZ approaches were in use. It was 2.9 degree glidepath then. It was finally raised to 3.2 degrees and passed all the checks. There was also a time (3-4 years ago) when some guy was unawarely using frequency close to GS transmitter for his private radio talks, which gave some wrong indications reported by crews. He got tracked down within a week. Since then there was no known to me problems with ILS.
You can check Polish AIP online (free registration required) at http://www.ais.pansa.pl/aip/
If you need some more information, please ask. However I'm not going to give away any details of the accident itself until it is officially verified. Just don't want to spread the rumours on the rumours forum ;)
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To all
Due to mu language knowledge I just translated the
Polish TV and internet portal information to this forum.
Nowhere have I accused anybody of anything,
I just quoted information, as it was coming.
I, following the information I got, mentioned all
possible causes of the incident (see my posts)
and brought up all the "dementi" given in due time.
I was as shocked as you were, that the main information
channel of the Polish TV mentioned in prime time
the "smell of alcohol". It was not me !!!
Later I quoted many times that "the pilots were sober",
as the official test results came out.
Now to answer some of your questions:
1. It was a UN mission, not Polish Army,
so the decision, which airline to chose was done
by the UN administration, not the Polish authorities.
2. The information on ILS can be found in Polish AIP on line:
http://www.ais.pata.pl/aip/ (you can register and log in for free)
3. I have done research on AEA, and appreciate their safety record.
bradford737:
Just relax and keep the facts coming.
The above quote is the kind of posting I am looking forward to,
this brings something to the case, and not the emotional attacks.
As well as this one:
Sorry, if anybody feels offended by my posts,
but I am just looking for answers.
Since no factual answers or professional comments are coming any more,
it looks like there is no need to follow this topic any more.
With all respect.
Polish TV and internet portal information to this forum.
Nowhere have I accused anybody of anything,
I just quoted information, as it was coming.
I, following the information I got, mentioned all
possible causes of the incident (see my posts)
and brought up all the "dementi" given in due time.
I was as shocked as you were, that the main information
channel of the Polish TV mentioned in prime time
the "smell of alcohol". It was not me !!!
Later I quoted many times that "the pilots were sober",
as the official test results came out.
Now to answer some of your questions:
1. It was a UN mission, not Polish Army,
so the decision, which airline to chose was done
by the UN administration, not the Polish authorities.
2. The information on ILS can be found in Polish AIP on line:
http://www.ais.pata.pl/aip/ (you can register and log in for free)
3. I have done research on AEA, and appreciate their safety record.
bradford737:
Just relax and keep the facts coming.
The fact that there where two captains and one F/O is because it was a long night flight, one of the captains is to reinforce the crew to avoid fatigue, it was no instruction flight. All crew members are well experienced pilots.
this brings something to the case, and not the emotional attacks.
As well as this one:
We must learn, learn about the contributing factors to the accident ( Yes, it was an accident, according Spanish laws RD 21/2003, substantial damage to an aircraft ), and know how to prevent this lethal combination who was about to kill more than one hundred people.
but I am just looking for answers.
Since no factual answers or professional comments are coming any more,
it looks like there is no need to follow this topic any more.
With all respect.