One rule for US another for the rest
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The True Story
I have never read such a load of horse.... in all my life.
The facts are that i am on my notice to compulsory redundancy along with 21 B747 Flight Deck crew because an American carrier was illegally contracted to fly a British civil route by Air Partner to the MOD.All other MOD charters are open to worldwide competition.We have complained and been backed up by the DfT that on the grounds of reciprocity an American carrier doing the route is illegal.The USA refuse to allow any carrier but American TO FLY USA ROUTES,point proven.We want a level playing field so Easy,Ryanair and all the others can put them permanently under serious competition.
Had the Falklands route been purely military Omni would have it without complaint other than more British jobs lost to the lowest bidder.As the route is a civilian route open to the public a British carrier supported by our EU partners must do the route.The BALPA press release has been corrected to match the realistic situation.If British pilots are happy to snipe at us trying to save our jobs then i hope you have a conscience and are not faced with the mess the MOD has got us into.For the record we recognise the right of the MOD to charter the cheapest for purely military but we dispute the advantage of a DC10 over our B747-300 with 30 tonnes belly load and the range without having to offload pax or freight.Never mind the route expertise and comfort.How long before Omni gives up the route depends on our ministry officials.
The facts are that i am on my notice to compulsory redundancy along with 21 B747 Flight Deck crew because an American carrier was illegally contracted to fly a British civil route by Air Partner to the MOD.All other MOD charters are open to worldwide competition.We have complained and been backed up by the DfT that on the grounds of reciprocity an American carrier doing the route is illegal.The USA refuse to allow any carrier but American TO FLY USA ROUTES,point proven.We want a level playing field so Easy,Ryanair and all the others can put them permanently under serious competition.
Had the Falklands route been purely military Omni would have it without complaint other than more British jobs lost to the lowest bidder.As the route is a civilian route open to the public a British carrier supported by our EU partners must do the route.The BALPA press release has been corrected to match the realistic situation.If British pilots are happy to snipe at us trying to save our jobs then i hope you have a conscience and are not faced with the mess the MOD has got us into.For the record we recognise the right of the MOD to charter the cheapest for purely military but we dispute the advantage of a DC10 over our B747-300 with 30 tonnes belly load and the range without having to offload pax or freight.Never mind the route expertise and comfort.How long before Omni gives up the route depends on our ministry officials.
The official Falklands website states the following:
There are over 30 European tour operators featuring tailor-made packages and escorted tours to the Falkland Islands, some travelling to the Islands by Ministry of Defence (MoD) Charter flight from the UK, but many now choose the weekly commercial service from South America, which has seen a steady increase in traffic.
There is a weekly LAN flight to the Falkland Islands from Santiago in Chile. Please visit International Tours and Travel, the LAN Chile agents in the Falklands, www.falklandstravel.com.
The MoD Charter flight flies to the Falklands six times per month from RAF Brize Norton, Oxfordshire. Bookings can be made via the Travel Coordinator, Falkland Islands Government Office, London. T: 020 7222 2542 or email [email protected].
For further information, please visit: www.visitorfalklands.com
This, to me, means that anyone can book a seat on a MoD chartered flight; whether or not this is a significant revenue stream for the MoD, I have no idea. The flights are not - and have not been for many years - exclusively military. On many occasions I've paxed between BZN and MPA with civilians on board - either contractors personnel or Falklands residents, plus some tourists.
However, I don't know whether this is still true of the new Omni operation. One thing though - their aircraft look much smarter than those old Icelandic-coded 747s which we used to see.
Before the RAF operated the route with TriStars, it was contracted variously to ba and Virgin. With other calls on the few serviceable passenger TriStars the MoD has, it is natural for the route to be supported by charter airlines.
But the question of flying non-MoD passengers and freight on such aircraft is one for the politicians to answer. Both in the government and in BALPA.
There are over 30 European tour operators featuring tailor-made packages and escorted tours to the Falkland Islands, some travelling to the Islands by Ministry of Defence (MoD) Charter flight from the UK, but many now choose the weekly commercial service from South America, which has seen a steady increase in traffic.
There is a weekly LAN flight to the Falkland Islands from Santiago in Chile. Please visit International Tours and Travel, the LAN Chile agents in the Falklands, www.falklandstravel.com.
The MoD Charter flight flies to the Falklands six times per month from RAF Brize Norton, Oxfordshire. Bookings can be made via the Travel Coordinator, Falkland Islands Government Office, London. T: 020 7222 2542 or email [email protected].
For further information, please visit: www.visitorfalklands.com
This, to me, means that anyone can book a seat on a MoD chartered flight; whether or not this is a significant revenue stream for the MoD, I have no idea. The flights are not - and have not been for many years - exclusively military. On many occasions I've paxed between BZN and MPA with civilians on board - either contractors personnel or Falklands residents, plus some tourists.
However, I don't know whether this is still true of the new Omni operation. One thing though - their aircraft look much smarter than those old Icelandic-coded 747s which we used to see.
Before the RAF operated the route with TriStars, it was contracted variously to ba and Virgin. With other calls on the few serviceable passenger TriStars the MoD has, it is natural for the route to be supported by charter airlines.
But the question of flying non-MoD passengers and freight on such aircraft is one for the politicians to answer. Both in the government and in BALPA.
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Therefore, we are NOT engaging in Cabotage. If we were selling tickets to the general public on flights within the UK, taking passengers from London to Glasgow and so forth, yes that would be Cabotage and it would be illegal. We do not do that.
To say that the USA is alone in prohibiting Cabotage is foolish.... It was not the USA which set up the ban on Cabotage in the first place. Cabotage was prohibited when the "Freedoms of the Air" were listed at the time of ICAO's formation in 1944.
Every country affiliated with ICAO has a responsibility to uphold the ban on Cabotage.
What you describe as a Fly America policy is probably nothing more than the USA adhearing to ICAO's prohibition against Cabotage.
Every other country should do the same.
To say that the USA is alone in prohibiting Cabotage is foolish.... It was not the USA which set up the ban on Cabotage in the first place. Cabotage was prohibited when the "Freedoms of the Air" were listed at the time of ICAO's formation in 1944.
Every country affiliated with ICAO has a responsibility to uphold the ban on Cabotage.
What you describe as a Fly America policy is probably nothing more than the USA adhearing to ICAO's prohibition against Cabotage.
Every other country should do the same.
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From a Brit mil chap:
firstly this is not the first time the FI contract has gone to a none-Brit company; AIR LUXOR anyone. And secondly, beyond a throw away comment from the observant pax (most wouldn't notice what nationality the jet belonged to), as long as the flights operated on time and everyone had a seat then I doubt the troops wouldn't give two hoots about who is operating the flight. We put up with a lot worse, for example 8 hour plus flights packed in the back of a Herc on a canvas seat.
The only time the airline will get grief from the end user is when the flight is delayed or cancelled as this is the worst news you can get after 4-6 months in the Falklands.
If the troops had their way the airline with the prettiest stewards would get the contract.
firstly this is not the first time the FI contract has gone to a none-Brit company; AIR LUXOR anyone. And secondly, beyond a throw away comment from the observant pax (most wouldn't notice what nationality the jet belonged to), as long as the flights operated on time and everyone had a seat then I doubt the troops wouldn't give two hoots about who is operating the flight. We put up with a lot worse, for example 8 hour plus flights packed in the back of a Herc on a canvas seat.
The only time the airline will get grief from the end user is when the flight is delayed or cancelled as this is the worst news you can get after 4-6 months in the Falklands.
If the troops had their way the airline with the prettiest stewards would get the contract.
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...an American carrier was illegally contracted to fly a British civil route by Air Partner to the MOD.All other MOD charters are open to worldwide competition.
One thing though - their aircraft look much smarter than those old Icelandic-coded 747s which we used to see.
Since when does BALPA represent Icelandic pilots?
Sounds like sour grapes to me when the MoD have clearly decided that another carrier (Omni) can provide better service...more than likely because the B747 previously used was tech delayed (gee, what an absolute surprise) and/or the 747 was simply too large, and as we all know, if you can't fill a 747 (especially an old one) its operating costs will eat you for lunch.
Of course, even if...
1. A UK carrier(s) had the long range equipment to fly the route
but...
2. Said UK carrier(s) decided not to bid....
Is then the MoD to throw up their collective hands, and give up the route?
One would hardly think so, so Omni is it, like it or not...and apparently some don't.
Tough beans.
"Tough beans"....
Which is probably not what Omni will say, the first time some clown of a Muppet clouts their aircraft with a lump of ground support equipment - as they did to the 747s with monotonous regularity....
Anyway, good luck to them. A regular, reliable carrier to - but particularly from - Bennyland is an enormous morale raiser for people stuck down there at the bottom of the world!
Which is probably not what Omni will say, the first time some clown of a Muppet clouts their aircraft with a lump of ground support equipment - as they did to the 747s with monotonous regularity....
Anyway, good luck to them. A regular, reliable carrier to - but particularly from - Bennyland is an enormous morale raiser for people stuck down there at the bottom of the world!
From my experience of flying as a pax on this route, and hearing regularly about the operation, there were some tech delays, but most delays (2 days extra "down South" was my record) were down to weather or for other operational reasons, either at ASI, MPA, or the diversions.
Someone mentioned route expertise. Of course Omni will learn it, but have a look at how far ASI is from another suitable airfield and that will tell you something about it's importance.
Oh, and saw some fun when the wind is from the north at MPA.
Omni are welcome to it, I reckon.
Someone mentioned route expertise. Of course Omni will learn it, but have a look at how far ASI is from another suitable airfield and that will tell you something about it's importance.
Oh, and saw some fun when the wind is from the north at MPA.
Omni are welcome to it, I reckon.
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I take issue with those who call the EU our partners. Why are they not partnering us in Afghanistan? I am all in favour of British crews flying British troops to the Falklands or anywhere else for that matter. I am not in favour of giving MOD contracts to so-called EU partners anymore than I am in favour of giving them to US crews.
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Redundant British Crew
We are 22 British licence holders working for XL,PAYING BRITISH TAXES + NI.We fly a TF reg B747-300 on TF validations,same as Virgin 4 years ago when they had 2 operating to Florida.I take it as an insult, to our efforts to keep the route in British hands,when those of you who it does not affect make unfounded comments.There is NO RECIPROCITY with the USA,so take your carrier back to where it belongs.We lose our jobs next month due to British mismanagement in government and a British broker with no loyalty to his country.I forgot to mention our cabin crew being made redundant,approx 50.
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How exactly is there no reciprocity? The US government hires carriers and airplanes from other countries when necessary. It isn't necessary often because we have such a large supply of available aircraft in our country. But the US government can and does hire foreign aircraft.... most notably Russian Antonovs.
If there were no available US aircraft for a specific trip, and there was an available British aircraft, the US government would hire it. However, due to the large number of available US airplanes sitting around, hiring the Brits isn't the most cost effective solution most of the time, and it hasn't been necessary.
There are not as many available airplanes in the UK. Therefore, they went outside of the UK. That's how things work in a world economy. The US would do the same thing if need be. Don't fool yourself into thinking that it wouldn't.
We have a ton of unused airplanes sitting around in this country, with crews just waiting to fly them. Lots of available lift. That is not true in the UK.
If there were no available US aircraft for a specific trip, and there was an available British aircraft, the US government would hire it. However, due to the large number of available US airplanes sitting around, hiring the Brits isn't the most cost effective solution most of the time, and it hasn't been necessary.
There are not as many available airplanes in the UK. Therefore, they went outside of the UK. That's how things work in a world economy. The US would do the same thing if need be. Don't fool yourself into thinking that it wouldn't.
We have a ton of unused airplanes sitting around in this country, with crews just waiting to fly them. Lots of available lift. That is not true in the UK.
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US Military is now taking delivery of their first of 322 EADS built helicopters. I am sure somebody at Bell and Hughes (Now MD or ? ) helicopters didn't get a job because of this.
Of course like many other things built by Airbus, they do not meet their performance targets either.....
Of course like many other things built by Airbus, they do not meet their performance targets either.....
Aviator Extraordinaire
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When it comes to leasing aircraft the US government has no restriction against the UK. All of the 727s I use to fly with the USMS have been replaced by 737-800 from,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,gasp, British Airways.
British Airways was the lowest bidder, go figure. So I guess it is not one rule for us and not another for the rest.
Carry on ranting without the facts.
British Airways was the lowest bidder, go figure. So I guess it is not one rule for us and not another for the rest.
Carry on ranting without the facts.
In response to Turn and Burn - I do have sympathy for your thoughts. However lets be clear. MoD contracting officers must be impartial and follow the contracting rules stipulated for contracting activity. Rules are that requirements must be advertised for expressions of interest under Contracts Bulletin and the European Journal. Down selection follows and in many cases companies invited to submit tenders under negotiated contract procedures within very tight financial availability constraints.
If the MoD were found to be not even following the very basic contractual tender procedurers they would be hung drawn and quartered. It is important that the service specification is made clear in the tender documents. From my personal experience it is a shame that there is a definite down turn in UK companies meeting the criteria that is specified and often at a cost that makes further justification a Value For Money solution.
Under competition however, UK companies should have as good a chance as anyone to win and provide a good value for solution to the satisfaction of the MoD and ultimately the UK tax payer. Regretably, this is not always the case.
Nivsy
If the MoD were found to be not even following the very basic contractual tender procedurers they would be hung drawn and quartered. It is important that the service specification is made clear in the tender documents. From my personal experience it is a shame that there is a definite down turn in UK companies meeting the criteria that is specified and often at a cost that makes further justification a Value For Money solution.
Under competition however, UK companies should have as good a chance as anyone to win and provide a good value for solution to the satisfaction of the MoD and ultimately the UK tax payer. Regretably, this is not always the case.
Nivsy
Last edited by nivsy; 26th Oct 2007 at 10:21. Reason: sp
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When it comes to leasing aircraft the US government has no restriction against the UK. All of the 727s I use to fly with the USMS have been replaced by 737-800 from,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,gasp , British Airways.
British Airways was the lowest bidder, go figure. So I guess it is not one rule for us and not another for the rest.
British Airways was the lowest bidder, go figure. So I guess it is not one rule for us and not another for the rest.
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We are 22 British licence holders working for XL,PAYING BRITISH TAXES + NI.We fly a TF reg B747-300 on TF validations,same as Virgin 4 years ago when they had 2 operating to Florida.I take it as an insult, to our efforts to keep the route in British hands,when those of you who it does not affect make unfounded comments
And, read nivsy's post carefully, for therein more answers might be found.
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Listen Out Please
To all the Americans stuck on TRANSMIT!!BZZ-ASI-MPA is a British Civil Route as it carries civilians.I have no argument against purely Military charters,we charter Antonovs as well as other cheap skates like Omni.Of course you are cheaper,your wages are now almost 3rd world.Ask any American contractor flying for non USA airlines around the world and they will tell you they cant afford to work in USA.The RECIPROCITY is about civil air routes not military charters,so please listen out!!!!!Also AIR ATLANTA is by virtue of nationality European as they are members of the extended economic association but not union.In other words they can ply their trade in Europe as well as any other EU member.Therefore they are not illegal.What on earth are you on about 411A that XL was grounded 11 years ago.Your facts require scrutiny so please tell all.You must be affected by the Hubbly Bubbly on the HAJ!!!!!!!
