Palma Fire crew, little too keen?

[Polarhero]

Was listening in while taxing out of PMI this morning and could here a First choice crew trying to tell ground not to let the fire crews to put foam into one of his engines.

He was telling them that it was normal for that aircraft to smoke a little from the tailpipe after shutdown and nothing was wrong but the fire guys just did it anyway.

You could just in his voice after how upset this guy was.

When we was going past they where still throwing more foam on it even tho he kept repeating that nothing was wrong and to stop.

In the end he was just asking for the bridge to be moved into place so he could get the pax off. And the best of it was after asking for the bridge he explained again what the score was and nothing was wrong ground just said "oh sorry"

So whats the cost of a new engine then and who pays for that? Airport? insurance company?

[ray cosmic]

Isn't it possible to "wash" the engine?

[ADC2604]

Was that a BRS 757 - I notice a 6 hour delay on the 14:20 arrival.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How many real emergencies does the average airfield fire crew member participate in during their working life? Approximately nought point something not-very-big?

Can you blame them for wanting to practice?

[Polarhero]

expensive practace....... very expensive.

As for washing the engine, i think it will be a bit more than that, cold liquid on to hot metal not good. And then you have the foam itself.

was a 75 so more than likely that one ADC.

[Clarence Oveur]

Can you blame them for wanting to practice?

Don't be daft.
You practice fire fighting on a rig, not on an aircraft with pax onboard and a crew telling you to stop.

If it had been my aircraft those fire fighters had better stayed in their trucks with the doors locked.

[calypso]

I am not sure what the legal position is but I am guessing that if the fire crew thinks it needs to act they are authorized to do so whatever the protestations of the crew. Afterall is not just your aircraft that may be affected if a serious fire develops plus on the cockpit you may not have all the information.

I am not sure how much is an engine rebuild but I guess less than a whole airframe.

Any firefighters out there care to comment?

[Ranger 1]

I saw a 757 at BRS with Smoke coming from its Port engine on a number of occaisions recently,(after shut down) being aware that some aircraft do emit smoke from the jetpipe on shut down especially V2500 sereies on A320 series aircraft, it was a case of no action to be taken, just monitor it, the only exception to this would have been an increase in the amount smoke or flames seen would have resulted in a call to the Fire Section.
Thermal shock to the hot section of a RB211 sounds very expensive.
I beleive that BCF/Halon is still carried by Fire Vehicles for this purpose, not forgetting the 757 has Fire bottles as well

[zerograv]

What about Crank the engine for a few seconds (10 or 15) after shut down?
(might help ventilate and dissipate the smoke and the comotion to the
ground personnel)

Any thoughts???

Zero

[Diedtrying]

As a firefighter at a major British airport I'd say they guys were a tad 'eager', I'm not going to slate the guys as I was not there. What makes the AFFRS different from the local authority is the ability to think and act for ourselves, every firefighter has to carry out their own dynamic risk assessment and act in accordance to how we perceive the incident. What would have happened if the crews done nothing and there was a real problem (we have had times where a pilot says his brake temps are a tad high but acceptable limits, when we can clearly see the odd flame lick). There will no doubt be an investigation into this and who knows what they will find.

normal for that aircraft to smoke a little from the tailpipe

Is this normal? what makes a tail pipe smoke after shut down, was there some liquid leaking into the pipe? if so there could have been a small fire that the captain knew nothing about. A few years ago we have a BMI abort a take off due to engine vibration, when we got there, there was a small fire between the center of the engine and the cowling, granted is was a very small fire but the aircraft instrumentation never picked it up (the engineer was pi##ed off as we shoved water and BCF down his tail pipe)

Hope this helps you all a bit.

[YYZ]

I was in PMI today also 1330z, the fire guys were playing about with there hoses in front of the station then also, checking the pressure of the machine id guess?

The 738 also smokes for a short while once shut down, although not alot, would hope the guys would be better informed next time to avoid the same incident? and/or have better communications to asses the situation better.

YYZ

[chiglet]

It hasn't been said just who called out the Fire Service guys [and gals]
watp,iktch

[perkin]

It hasn't been said just who called out the Fire Service guys [and gals]

...and of course WHY they were in attendance in the first place?

[LH2]

As it happens, three of my mates work as Aena firefighters (none of them in Palma, but it's the same sh1t all over).

What makes the AFFRS different from the local authority is the ability to think and act for ourselves

...that might be the case elsewhere, perhaps. But this is most certainly not the case with Aena. Aena firefighters get, save the very odd exception, no training whatsoever. They pass a selection which consists of a written test and a series of athletic exercises and then that's it, job for life. Even though some of the younger recruits are not happy with the current state of affairs and want to see improvements, they hit a wall as Aena is not keen to spend on training, and the labour union reps do not want their easy lives disrupted (they prefer to strike over things like too little ham in their sandwiches and the like - honest )

What my mates told me was, if you are going to crash, make sure you don't do it in Spain. I've heard enough horrour stories told in first person by these guys to make sure I heed their advice

There will no doubt be an investigation into this and who knows what they will find.

Wanna bet?

Based on what I've posted above, I would hazard the fellows in Palma acted with the best of intentions in mind but with absolutely zilch idea of what they were doing. The fact that they are not assessed in (or required to know) the English language surely did not help either. I suggest next time the flight crew try calling the tower rather than trying to communicate with the ground crew directly--they might stand a slightly better chance of making themselves understood.

[Ranger 1]

I have Heard a rumour on the Grapevine that the Engine has to be changed before the aircraft can depart PMI.

[TCX69]

Yes the a/c G-OOBC will require an engine change now before it can leave PMI. It was due to operate the FCA7623 PMI-BRS, which had to be rescued in the end by G-OOBD from MAN. Will probably be there for a while.

[HON]

They are F Idiots at PMI. I can cast my mind back to several ground related incidents that have occured there. I really hope that FCA pass all costs to ANEA Airport Fire Department (Although no doubt they will not pay), It will be just like when a handling agent damages an aircraft, they just gwt out of paying the costs. I remember TCX carrying out a really good campaign last year targeted at damage to a/c on the ground as a result of things such as the above and poor/shoddy ground handling. With things like this, the cost does not just stop at replacement parts for the a/c, it goes on to include, programme dissruption for days (sometimes weeks) after the event, costs to the airline of rescueing the programme, getting passingers home and most of all the publicity damage to the airlines name. These guys in PMI should be suspended without pay with immediate effect.

[PENKO]

Still no word on what actually happened. Why were the firemen called out in the first place?

[yeoman]

Some engines smoke because oil leaks from the labarynth seals on bearings. The oil weeps into the hot section and boils off.

I vaguely remember the reason the seals leak is because in normal operation the oil pressure on one side of the seal is balanced by bleed air on the other. On shut down the bleed pressure drops faster than the oil presure and oil is forced out of the bearing by the relatively higher pressure on the oil side.

I could be talking complete poo however! Not even sure the RB 211 has labarynth seals. Used to be the case on the Gem.

[LH2]

Why were the firemen called out in the first place?

I am just hazarding a guess here so take me with a pinch of salt, but it's probable that their presence was a routine operational requirement.