Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Well, I prefer a clearly lit ultra bright (day and night) red stop bar when to hold short. And a green TWY CL when to cross...
I hate unclear stopbars, I hate non standard solutions.
But that's just lazy me ofcourse...
I hate unclear stopbars, I hate non standard solutions.
But that's just lazy me ofcourse...
Lluke ..... agree with you 
However, the "Manchester Experiment" is just that.
Unfortunately the painted lines/wig-wags/red stop bars (and lack of lead-on's as you point out) fail to prevent a steady number of continuing runway incursions - as well as crossing of intermediate stop-bars.
As I understand this this is an attempt to see if there's any other mechanism which might help in reducing the number of runway incursions.
It's not about introducing a "non-standard" solution just for MAN, it's simply the place where a bit of experimental research is being carried out.
It's similar to the Manchester effort to understand why taxiway errors take place - and yep .. of course the obvious (or not always obvious) taxiway system scores highly there
(equally the ideal solution is time challenging and costly).
But right now if if there's a "wrong turn" there's an attempt to have an immediate "go-look" and see if there's something in the signage/lighting/ traffic/anything which might have encouraged it. If possible without disrupting a turnaround a quick check with the driver(s) to get their input.
It might be some lighting/signs have failed or it may be that a previously unspotted misleading something or other contributed.
Same for pushback errors.
I've viewed it as an open proactive safety system always trying to understand and search/research.
It's just the D5 sensor is something everyone gets to see (well hear really!).
Maybe it will just fade away ..... or maybe at some future point it will get considered for greater testing/promulgation elsewhere.
However, the "Manchester Experiment" is just that.
Unfortunately the painted lines/wig-wags/red stop bars (and lack of lead-on's as you point out) fail to prevent a steady number of continuing runway incursions - as well as crossing of intermediate stop-bars.
As I understand this this is an attempt to see if there's any other mechanism which might help in reducing the number of runway incursions.
It's not about introducing a "non-standard" solution just for MAN, it's simply the place where a bit of experimental research is being carried out.
It's similar to the Manchester effort to understand why taxiway errors take place - and yep .. of course the obvious (or not always obvious) taxiway system scores highly there
(equally the ideal solution is time challenging and costly).But right now if if there's a "wrong turn" there's an attempt to have an immediate "go-look" and see if there's something in the signage/lighting/ traffic/anything which might have encouraged it. If possible without disrupting a turnaround a quick check with the driver(s) to get their input.
It might be some lighting/signs have failed or it may be that a previously unspotted misleading something or other contributed.
Same for pushback errors.
I've viewed it as an open proactive safety system always trying to understand and search/research.
It's just the D5 sensor is something everyone gets to see (well hear really!).
Maybe it will just fade away ..... or maybe at some future point it will get considered for greater testing/promulgation elsewhere.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cheshire, England
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Manrow,
I'm so glad you have nothing against us chaps (and chapesses) at Manchester. As far as I am aware, a few of us controllers haven't cast our eyes over this one, either this time or the last time it was "trialled". Alas, on that occasion the trial was somewhat negated by the closure of D5 for taxiway repairs. Better luck this time. It is an airport company trial of which we have been made aware.
I'm so glad you have nothing against us chaps (and chapesses) at Manchester. As far as I am aware, a few of us controllers haven't cast our eyes over this one, either this time or the last time it was "trialled". Alas, on that occasion the trial was somewhat negated by the closure of D5 for taxiway repairs. Better luck this time. It is an airport company trial of which we have been made aware.
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The trial at D5 Hold has been running for a month and feedback to the airport has been …… minimal. We know you pilots are busy when taxiing out but can we ask, nay plead, 
that some of you report back. Did you hear Jane saying ‘Ground Marker Testing’.
Without feedback it’s difficult to move on. Just to remind you of the goal here; when installed at Stop Bars, and should you cross on Red, the system will immediately transmit ‘Runway Warning, Runway Warning’. Or, if you all prefer, ‘Stop Stop Stop’. See HERE Second image down.
C’mon guys and gals, do forget a big favour and turn up your Marker Vol when go outbound through D5. Forever grateful.
If you don't have time to complete the airport forms then send me a PM.
that some of you report back. Did you hear Jane saying ‘Ground Marker Testing’. Without feedback it’s difficult to move on. Just to remind you of the goal here; when installed at Stop Bars, and should you cross on Red, the system will immediately transmit ‘Runway Warning, Runway Warning’. Or, if you all prefer, ‘Stop Stop Stop’. See HERE Second image down.
C’mon guys and gals, do forget a big favour and turn up your Marker Vol when go outbound through D5. Forever grateful.
If you don't have time to complete the airport forms then send me a PM.
BusyB
The traffic through D5 would be all the T2 stuff, west apron/remote (stands 60> .. so all the B74F's/Air Contractors/Jet2 remotes etc) plus the T1 C pier traffic (stands 21>) and with the entrance to Lima before D5 currently blocked due WIP the T1 stands off Lima.
Basically almost all of the "non-domestic" stuff and anything going remote.
Traffic for T3 and Ocean Sky are unlikely to use D5.
So that's quite a high proportion of the a/c passing through D5 .. shame there's not much feedback.
The ultimate usefulness or otherwise I suppose will really depend on the reasons for the incursions in the first place.
Are they due to misunderstood instructions or folks believing they've been given a clearence when it's not the case.......?
If used in a live system and being switched off with the stop bar then maybe it would help?
The traffic through D5 would be all the T2 stuff, west apron/remote (stands 60> .. so all the B74F's/Air Contractors/Jet2 remotes etc) plus the T1 C pier traffic (stands 21>) and with the entrance to Lima before D5 currently blocked due WIP the T1 stands off Lima.
Basically almost all of the "non-domestic" stuff and anything going remote.
Traffic for T3 and Ocean Sky are unlikely to use D5.
So that's quite a high proportion of the a/c passing through D5 .. shame there's not much feedback.
The ultimate usefulness or otherwise I suppose will really depend on the reasons for the incursions in the first place.
Are they due to misunderstood instructions or folks believing they've been given a clearence when it's not the case.......?
If used in a live system and being switched off with the stop bar then maybe it would help?
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Calling all Mods
Come in Mods
Would it be allowed to place links on the airline only forums, that lurk below this open one, to alert them to this trial?
This attempt by Manch to move the state of the art forward seems aimed not ony at their own safety record, and the greater good, but also the the crew base at MAN.
Shirley, as wide an audience as poss would make this effort more worthwhile?
With all the based T2 airlines here with closed forums only you God like Mods can spread the word
After all, the old east link is their fav way to the duty RWY so many must be passing over the spot with their markers turned down on a daily basis.
Sir George Cayley
Come in ModsWould it be allowed to place links on the airline only forums, that lurk below this open one, to alert them to this trial?
This attempt by Manch to move the state of the art forward seems aimed not ony at their own safety record, and the greater good, but also the the crew base at MAN.
Shirley, as wide an audience as poss would make this effort more worthwhile?
With all the based T2 airlines here with closed forums only you God like Mods can spread the word
After all, the old east link is their fav way to the duty RWY so many must be passing over the spot with their markers turned down on a daily basis.Sir George Cayley
As I understand this this is an attempt to see if there's any other mechanism which might help in reducing the number of runway incursions.
Out of curiousity how does ATC find out that an aircraft has passed beyond where it is supposed to go?
BB
How do they know .... incursion sensors/Mk1 eyeball/Apolgies or Warning via R/T etc.....
Your idea of a mechanical device I believe has been thought of before .. problem is that everything mechanical fails at some point.
Not being able to enter a RWY would certainly reduce the risk of incursions
The method being tested has the advantage of using what's already in the a/c and requires only a relatively cheap change on the airfield
How do they know .... incursion sensors/Mk1 eyeball/Apolgies or Warning via R/T etc.....
Your idea of a mechanical device I believe has been thought of before .. problem is that everything mechanical fails at some point.
Not being able to enter a RWY would certainly reduce the risk of incursions
The method being tested has the advantage of using what's already in the a/c and requires only a relatively cheap change on the airfield
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If this system stops us having to suffer the incessant bleating by Denvil reminding us about stop signs in place H24 - pilots are reminded....blah, blahh, blah on the ATIS then I'm all for it !
Keep ATIS short, simple and to the point
Keep ATIS short, simple and to the point
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according to the aim the stop bar lights, used to confirm the atc clearance to enter or cross the active rwy in low visb conditions blw rvr 350m or550m
is that mean the pilots can cross the lights in good visb?
is that mean the pilots can cross the lights in good visb?
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No, No and No.
If you drive think about red traffic lights. Don't cross at red. Ask, get an Ops vehicle or whatever. Red is red and means stop.
IFALPA say so, ICAO says so, EASA says so. So don't do it.
If ATC are slow in dropping the bar, challenge them.
Sir George Cayley
If you drive think about red traffic lights. Don't cross at red. Ask, get an Ops vehicle or whatever. Red is red and means stop.
IFALPA say so, ICAO says so, EASA says so. So don't do it.
If ATC are slow in dropping the bar, challenge them.
Sir George Cayley
