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Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment

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Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment

Old 20th Oct 2007, 09:56
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p1fel
BA fit station box in G-CPE* series, no marker audio!
It does - but I’m not surprised you thought it didn’t. I think this is your Audio Control Panel, below.

I’m told that you can turn off the ILS/MLS received audio so that only the MB will be present. Apparently you do this by repeatedly pushing the ILS/MLS Volume Control switch until the ILS/MLS LEDs (L-C-R) are off. You then have Marker Volume. Wrong, See below.

I don't think I’ve ever seen a single switch on any aircraft that doesn’t tell you what it’s for. I can almost picture what happened here. The guys who designed it thought ‘MLS’. We won’t need Marker; we have to wire it in - but won’t show it.

PS. Months Later - The correct story from the manufacturer - who also provided the incorrect story above!

The Marker Audio is on whenever any of the three ILS/MLS channels are selected. Within the ACP. The Marker headphone output level is factory set. The ILS/MLS selection and audio level is controlled via a dedicated front panel switch/volume control.


Last edited by forget; 26th Feb 2008 at 08:37.
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Old 20th Oct 2007, 18:33
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Runway Ahead

Slight change to tack, but what are the thoughts on runway ahead signs as a prevention method?
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Old 20th Oct 2007, 20:08
  #43 (permalink)  
Sir George Cayley
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Runway ahead markings.......

So, ATC clear you to A1. Your pass A3, A2 (which is the CATlll hold) and you approach A1.

You are confronted by - 2 yellow lines and 2 dashed yelow lines across the TWY, a pair of wig wags and yellow/black and red signs telling you "A1 CATl" 27 - 09.

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

If it's dark, then the reds will be on and the greens will stop. (UK SOP)

If it needs a painted marking on the ground to say there is a runway somewhere up front then, I put it to m'lud, that sumat else is up and a sticking plaster won't work long term.

I was at a pilot meeting recently and a chap from the states put it succinctly "you don't run reds coming to work in your automobile, so why the f88k do you do it in an airplane?!

I've seen a few of these markings around and whilst the intention is clearly to enhance safety, I think a point is being missed.

Sir George
 
Old 20th Oct 2007, 23:00
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Milan,
A/c on the wrong taxiway cleared to cross an active runway behind a departing, but crossed in front of it.....or am I wrong, again?
bb
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Old 27th Mar 2009, 15:11
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Phase II of Trial.

It’s been a while but enough positive feedback was gained from the trial for Manchester Airport to go ahead with Phase II and Delta 5 now has a single test system operating. Turn up your MKR volume and, as you pass through the Hold, you should hear ‘Ground Marker testing - Ground Marker testing’. Manchester’s intention, if things go as planned, is to apply the system to (Red) Runway Stop Bars where any infringement would provide pilots with an immediate Audio Warning.

For an example see HERE, second image down, and click the Play Button.

The layout of Delta 5, with microwave sensors, is shown below. The trial will run until, approximately, 31st May 2009. Operators out of Manchester will have received a questionnaire for comments; but all reasonable opinions welcomed here.

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Old 27th Mar 2009, 18:21
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It's always worth a bash trying anything which may improve safety, but I can't help but feel that selective attention will come into play with this type of system. Most of us have unconsciously trained ourselves to ignore messages which are not preceded with our callsign. Any overly wordy messages (beloved by us Brits), will also have a negative effect.

If the marker beacon is only powered when the red stop bars are illuminated, then a simple "Stop! Stop! Stop!" would certainly get attention and perhaps produce the desired result most consistently.
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Old 27th Mar 2009, 19:36
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@Musket90 the Red lighted bars are lit in the daylight...I saw them with me own eyes

OMG that women sounds stuckup...can they try and get a nice sexy woman or man saying...Oi cowboy stop this mother effing plane now...
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Old 27th Mar 2009, 20:43
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Sir George Cayley
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For the older reader including Chiglet, Danny, Cossack,Carnage et al D5 = the old East Link

As B Fawlty once said "Turn it up, t u r n i t u p!" The markers that is.

Must remember when I'm next at Mancland Int'l

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Old 27th Mar 2009, 22:46
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An old school Captain once turned round to me after we had just got taxi and said “yeah, we are going through the link”
“the what?” I said
“the link”
“Oh, you mean D5?”
“that’s what I said, the link.........”

Next time I’m up in MAN I will make sure iv got it turned up, anything that improves safety is a good thing in my book.
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Old 28th Mar 2009, 07:55
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I am certainly not against innovation and improvement, but haven't the last few posters demonstrated the problem?

When in Manchester I need to remember ........................ ?

If it were installed worldwide it could be a significant benefit, and I hope that transpires.
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Old 28th Mar 2009, 10:33
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Its got to start somewhere manrow.
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Old 28th Mar 2009, 16:37
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forget's post is helpful but if you press the play button on all the recordings at once it achieves the desired effect - replication of RT patter, 'cabin secure', idents etc. that may ultimately confuse everyone. There is enough noise as it is, IMHO.

Also, as the transmitter is located AFTER the line, surely incursion has already occurred by this point ?

I think the best plan would be to extend the 'hefty fines for being early' to include 'hefty fines for not departing on time'. Particular waypoints could also be time-stamped with the provision of more en-route holding points (laybys) just in case the wind on the day was non-standard. This would allow more accurate arrivals and departures to the point that runway crossing would only be allowed 4 mins and 15 seconds before your departure slot and this time would be coordinated such that no aircraft would be on the runway to be crossed between 4 minutes and 4 minutes 30 seconds of that time. We could probably do away with RT altogether.

Alternatively, airlines could choose other airports where this financial inducement and technology was not available.
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Old 28th Mar 2009, 17:00
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Otto Throttle.
…. then a simple "Stop! Stop! Stop!" would certainly get attention and perhaps produce the desired result most consistently.
You could well be right. The actual words used are programmed, by the user, from an internal library. ‘Stop Stop Stop’ is there as an option.

…. trained ourselves to ignore messages which are not preceded with our call-sign.
It’s probable that messages will be preceded by a very brief ‘alert’ tone – the Marker audio frequencies make sense.

Hansoff
Also, as the transmitter is located AFTER the line, surely incursion has already occurred by this point?
Quite right. One problem with incursions is that you never know they’re going to happen. You only know after they’ve happened. Immediately warning the crew that they’ve passed a Red Stop Bar should achieve the desired result - prevention of runway collisions.
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Old 29th Mar 2009, 12:55
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Is there a potential danger here? The system appears to be fail-unsafe, as in:

Crew lose SA on an unfamiliar airport, then:

"Are we OK to cross here?"
"Well - they have Ground Marker here - it'll soon tell us if we go wrong."

But the detector or its transmitter has just failed and gives no warning....
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Old 29th Mar 2009, 19:08
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TCAS is fail-unsafe also.
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Old 30th Mar 2009, 13:04
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Sallyann1234.
The system appears to be fail-unsafe, as in: Crew lose SA, then: "Are we OK to cross here?" "Well - they have Ground Marker here - it'll soon tell us if we go wrong."
I think not. In any case, full time Built in Test can immediately relay any defect back to ATC Eng.
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Old 30th Mar 2009, 15:05
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In any case, full time Built in Test can immediately relay any defect back to ATC Eng.
Yes, I'm sure it will incorporate a lot of BITE. It's just that we have all seen systems that were initially intended for last-ditch protection become relied upon as a substitute for proper manual judgement.
It's a delightfully simple concept though and deserves to succeed.
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Old 31st Mar 2009, 20:30
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Hang about

I'm delightfully simple When will I suceed?

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Old 1st Apr 2009, 17:27
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When will I suceed?
You already did. In 1853.
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Old 1st Apr 2009, 22:03
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In most respects I agree Stue; 'Its got to start somewhere manrow.'

But I hope that more eyes have cast their views over this proposal than just a few controllers at Manchester. Nothing against Manchester controllers you understand, but whenever one unit comes up with a unique proposal like this one (however good it may be) they can cause mayhem for the international crews using that airfield, and provide misleading results.
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