Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment
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p1fel
It does - but I’m not surprised you thought it didn’t. 
I think this is your Audio Control Panel, below.
I’m told that you can turn off the ILS/MLS received audio so that only the MB will be present. Apparently you do this by repeatedly pushing the ILS/MLS Volume Control switch until the ILS/MLS LEDs (L-C-R) are off. You then have Marker Volume. Wrong, See below.
I don't think I’ve ever seen a single switch on any aircraft that doesn’t tell you what it’s for. I can almost picture what happened here. The guys who designed it thought ‘MLS’. We won’t need Marker; we have to wire it in - but won’t show it.
PS. Months Later - The correct story from the manufacturer - who also provided the incorrect story above!
The Marker Audio is on whenever any of the three ILS/MLS channels are selected. Within the ACP. The Marker headphone output level is factory set. The ILS/MLS selection and audio level is controlled via a dedicated front panel switch/volume control.
BA fit station box in G-CPE* series, no marker audio!
I think this is your Audio Control Panel, below. I’m told that you can turn off the ILS/MLS received audio so that only the MB will be present. Apparently you do this by repeatedly pushing the ILS/MLS Volume Control switch until the ILS/MLS LEDs (L-C-R) are off. You then have Marker Volume. Wrong, See below.
I don't think I’ve ever seen a single switch on any aircraft that doesn’t tell you what it’s for. I can almost picture what happened here. The guys who designed it thought ‘MLS’. We won’t need Marker; we have to wire it in - but won’t show it.
PS. Months Later - The correct story from the manufacturer - who also provided the incorrect story above!
The Marker Audio is on whenever any of the three ILS/MLS channels are selected. Within the ACP. The Marker headphone output level is factory set. The ILS/MLS selection and audio level is controlled via a dedicated front panel switch/volume control.
Last edited by forget; 26th Feb 2008 at 08:37.
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Runway ahead markings.......
So, ATC clear you to A1. Your pass A3, A2 (which is the CATlll hold) and you approach A1.
You are confronted by - 2 yellow lines and 2 dashed yelow lines across the TWY, a pair of wig wags and yellow/black and red signs telling you "A1 CATl" 27 - 09.
WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
If it's dark, then the reds will be on and the greens will stop. (UK SOP)
If it needs a painted marking on the ground to say there is a runway somewhere up front then, I put it to m'lud, that sumat else is up and a sticking plaster won't work long term.
I was at a pilot meeting recently and a chap from the states put it succinctly "you don't run reds coming to work in your automobile, so why the f88k do you do it in an airplane?!
I've seen a few of these markings around and whilst the intention is clearly to enhance safety, I think a point is being missed.
Sir George
You are confronted by - 2 yellow lines and 2 dashed yelow lines across the TWY, a pair of wig wags and yellow/black and red signs telling you "A1 CATl" 27 - 09.
WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
If it's dark, then the reds will be on and the greens will stop. (UK SOP)
If it needs a painted marking on the ground to say there is a runway somewhere up front then, I put it to m'lud, that sumat else is up and a sticking plaster won't work long term.
I was at a pilot meeting recently and a chap from the states put it succinctly "you don't run reds coming to work in your automobile, so why the f88k do you do it in an airplane?!
I've seen a few of these markings around and whilst the intention is clearly to enhance safety, I think a point is being missed.
Sir George
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Phase II of Trial.
It’s been a while 
but enough positive feedback was gained from the trial for Manchester Airport to go ahead with Phase II and Delta 5 now has a single test system operating. Turn up your MKR volume and, as you pass through the Hold, you should hear ‘Ground Marker testing - Ground Marker testing’. Manchester’s intention, if things go as planned, is to apply the system to (Red) Runway Stop Bars where any infringement would provide pilots with an immediate Audio Warning.
For an example see HERE, second image down, and click the Play Button.
The layout of Delta 5, with microwave sensors, is shown below. The trial will run until, approximately, 31st May 2009. Operators out of Manchester will have received a questionnaire for comments; but all reasonable opinions welcomed here.
but enough positive feedback was gained from the trial for Manchester Airport to go ahead with Phase II and Delta 5 now has a single test system operating. Turn up your MKR volume and, as you pass through the Hold, you should hear ‘Ground Marker testing - Ground Marker testing’. Manchester’s intention, if things go as planned, is to apply the system to (Red) Runway Stop Bars where any infringement would provide pilots with an immediate Audio Warning.For an example see HERE, second image down, and click the Play Button.
The layout of Delta 5, with microwave sensors, is shown below. The trial will run until, approximately, 31st May 2009. Operators out of Manchester will have received a questionnaire for comments; but all reasonable opinions welcomed here.
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It's always worth a bash trying anything which may improve safety, but I can't help but feel that selective attention will come into play with this type of system. Most of us have unconsciously trained ourselves to ignore messages which are not preceded with our callsign. Any overly wordy messages (beloved by us Brits), will also have a negative effect.
If the marker beacon is only powered when the red stop bars are illuminated, then a simple "Stop! Stop! Stop!" would certainly get attention and perhaps produce the desired result most consistently.
If the marker beacon is only powered when the red stop bars are illuminated, then a simple "Stop! Stop! Stop!" would certainly get attention and perhaps produce the desired result most consistently.
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@Musket90 the Red lighted bars are lit in the daylight...I saw them with me own eyes
OMG that women sounds stuckup...can they try and get a nice sexy woman or man saying...Oi cowboy stop this mother effing plane now...
OMG that women sounds stuckup...can they try and get a nice sexy woman or man saying...Oi cowboy stop this mother effing plane now...
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An old school Captain once turned round to me after we had just got taxi and said “yeah, we are going through the link”
“the what?” I said
“the link”
“Oh, you mean D5?”
“that’s what I said, the link.........”
Next time I’m up in MAN I will make sure iv got it turned up, anything that improves safety is a good thing in my book.
“the what?” I said
“the link”
“Oh, you mean D5?”
“that’s what I said, the link.........”
Next time I’m up in MAN I will make sure iv got it turned up, anything that improves safety is a good thing in my book.
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I am certainly not against innovation and improvement, but haven't the last few posters demonstrated the problem?
When in Manchester I need to remember ........................ ?
If it were installed worldwide it could be a significant benefit, and I hope that transpires.
When in Manchester I need to remember ........................ ?
If it were installed worldwide it could be a significant benefit, and I hope that transpires.
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forget's post is helpful but if you press the play button on all the recordings at once it achieves the desired effect - replication of RT patter, 'cabin secure', idents etc. that may ultimately confuse everyone. There is enough noise as it is, IMHO.
Also, as the transmitter is located AFTER the line, surely incursion has already occurred by this point ?
I think the best plan would be to extend the 'hefty fines for being early' to include 'hefty fines for not departing on time'. Particular waypoints could also be time-stamped with the provision of more en-route holding points (laybys) just in case the wind on the day was non-standard. This would allow more accurate arrivals and departures to the point that runway crossing would only be allowed 4 mins and 15 seconds before your departure slot and this time would be coordinated such that no aircraft would be on the runway to be crossed between 4 minutes and 4 minutes 30 seconds of that time. We could probably do away with RT altogether.
Alternatively, airlines could choose other airports where this financial inducement and technology was not available.
Also, as the transmitter is located AFTER the line, surely incursion has already occurred by this point ?
I think the best plan would be to extend the 'hefty fines for being early' to include 'hefty fines for not departing on time'. Particular waypoints could also be time-stamped with the provision of more en-route holding points (laybys) just in case the wind on the day was non-standard. This would allow more accurate arrivals and departures to the point that runway crossing would only be allowed 4 mins and 15 seconds before your departure slot and this time would be coordinated such that no aircraft would be on the runway to be crossed between 4 minutes and 4 minutes 30 seconds of that time. We could probably do away with RT altogether.
Alternatively, airlines could choose other airports where this financial inducement and technology was not available.
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Otto Throttle.
You could well be right. The actual words used are programmed, by the user, from an internal library. ‘Stop Stop Stop’ is there as an option.
It’s probable that messages will be preceded by a very brief ‘alert’ tone – the Marker audio frequencies make sense.
Hansoff
Quite right. One problem with incursions is that you never know they’re going to happen. You only know after they’ve happened. Immediately warning the crew that they’ve passed a Red Stop Bar should achieve the desired result - prevention of runway collisions.
…. then a simple "Stop! Stop! Stop!" would certainly get attention and perhaps produce the desired result most consistently.
…. trained ourselves to ignore messages which are not preceded with our call-sign.
Hansoff
Also, as the transmitter is located AFTER the line, surely incursion has already occurred by this point?
Is there a potential danger here? The system appears to be fail-unsafe, as in:
Crew lose SA on an unfamiliar airport, then:
"Are we OK to cross here?"
"Well - they have Ground Marker here - it'll soon tell us if we go wrong."
But the detector or its transmitter has just failed and gives no warning....
Crew lose SA on an unfamiliar airport, then:
"Are we OK to cross here?"
"Well - they have Ground Marker here - it'll soon tell us if we go wrong."
But the detector or its transmitter has just failed and gives no warning....
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Sallyann1234.
I think not. In any case, full time Built in Test can immediately relay any defect back to ATC Eng.
The system appears to be fail-unsafe, as in: Crew lose SA, then: "Are we OK to cross here?" "Well - they have Ground Marker here - it'll soon tell us if we go wrong."
In any case, full time Built in Test can immediately relay any defect back to ATC Eng.
In any case, full time Built in Test can immediately relay any defect back to ATC Eng.
It's a delightfully simple concept though and deserves to succeed.
When will I suceed?
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In most respects I agree Stue; 'Its got to start somewhere manrow.'
But I hope that more eyes have cast their views over this proposal than just a few controllers at Manchester. Nothing against Manchester controllers you understand, but whenever one unit comes up with a unique proposal like this one (however good it may be) they can cause mayhem for the international crews using that airfield, and provide misleading results.
But I hope that more eyes have cast their views over this proposal than just a few controllers at Manchester. Nothing against Manchester controllers you understand, but whenever one unit comes up with a unique proposal like this one (however good it may be) they can cause mayhem for the international crews using that airfield, and provide misleading results.
