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Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment

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Runway Incursions - The Manchester Experiment

Old 11th Oct 2007, 19:08
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Magplug,
you should be an airport designer with your ingenious solutions!
simply build a taxiway that goes around 23R... im sure the fully loaded air china cargo would appreciate seeing an emirates 773 crossing beyond the far end of the runway as he attempts to stop the thing! Have you ever heard of a stopway? Maybe just shorten 23R to what, lets pluck a number, 1500 metres.
Every airport is different. Gatwick has lots more taxiways, Heathrow departures from T1,2 and 3 do not have to cross any runway (excluding 23!).
The taxiway system at MAN is complex and cramped, therefore it merits the introduction of any reasonable trial which is aimed at improving safety.
quote magplug:
"Every pilot knows that you cannot cross red stop-bars without explicit clearance - this is day one stuff." - Day 1 of what? The course on how to be an imbecile?
Hands up any Heathrow ATCO or LPO who has never had an a/c cross a red stop bar!
Quote:
"Go and spend some time at Heathrow or Gatwick to see how the pros operate."
There are quite a few ex LL & KK ATCOs at manch, being employed and trained by the same company.
Finally, since when does the number of a/c movements dictate how likely you are to see a runway incursion?
I have no evidence to support this theory but I believe it is exactly at times when the airfield isnt maxed out and the ATC workload is just simmering down that you are likely to relax and hence risk an incursion.
(getting bored and wont bother with details)
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Old 11th Oct 2007, 20:55
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In 1990, eight years into my FAA air traffic controller stint and immediately following the NWA DC9/727 collision on the ground in KDTW, I suggested a similar idea to the FAA (in writing). In fog, the NWA DC9 had inadvertently taxied onto runway 3C, thinking they were still on a taxiway, and collided with the 727 on departure roll. My suggestion was pretty simple: I suggested that a 75 mHz transmitter/antenna be wired to the runway or taxiway lighting and thus only transmit during night and/or low-vis ops in a narrow beam at the hold short line. All the transmission would have to say would be something like, "runway three center" over and over again.

I thought the idea was elegant because the transmitter would be powered during the periods when it was needed because the lights already were required to be on during those periods, and on the other side, any aircraft operating during low-vis operations would be equipped to hear the transmission. All the FAA would need to do would be to require crew to listen to the receiver during ground ops. Admittedly, it was neither interactive nor high-tech. It was simply an extra tool which provided an additional safety net at very low cost.

It was rejected out-of-hand by the FAA. First, I couldn't get them to respond to me at all, so I contacted my Congressman with the story, and his staff called the FAA (yes, I set my Congressman upon my employer). Finally I got a call from someone (a surveilance program manager) in DC who explained that this was a stupid idea because no pilot would ever comply with such a rule ("we'll never get the pilots to do it"), and, to the extent they WOULD do it, it just increased the pilots' workload. I explained that in the case of the DC9/727 collision at DTW, it might very well have prevented the incursion in the first place. He said that that was a unique case and it was unlikely to happen again. "Anyway," he told me, "we've got a new system in the works that will use SSR data to tag aircraft on the ground and display them to the controller."

If you think I'm still irritated by this, you're right. And in the years since, I've not found the FAA to be any more willing to listen to subject-matter experts than they were back then.

Dave
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Old 11th Oct 2007, 21:46
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Here at the Towers we'd like to draw your attention to an interesting proof of concept trial going on at EGCC until the 16th October.

There's a bit of kit in the cockpit that's barely used in anger these days - the marker beacon receiver. The idea is to transmit a pretty tightly focussed voice message adjacent to stop bars at holding points.
That's interesting. The performance computer I mentioned in another thread recently was to work in exactly this way in its original form. It was to have announced the feet to go during take-off and landing.

The inventor wanted to sell the receivers, but I pointed out that there was a little used receiver in almost every aircraft in the world.

That was in the mid seventies.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...er#post2151778
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Old 11th Oct 2007, 22:00
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maplug,
couple of points here: firstly, I don't know the layout of many of the airports you quote but I do know LHR pretty well and as B&B has mentioned, three terminals are between the departure and arrival runways so the runway crossing is not so much of an issue there.
Yes LGW do a bl00dy good job as the busiest single runway airport in the world, although they presumably require 5 or 6 mile spacing to allow departures - I don't know if that results in regular holding delays for the inbounds, compared to 3 or 4 mile spacings permitted by dual runway ops. I guess you will have a better idea than me on that one.
I'd suggest it's a bit harsh to criticise the MAN ATCOs for inflexibility if you're referring to the requirements to obtain extra readbacks of holding points, given that it's now an operational requirement under their procedures. The last runway incursion I witnessed at my airport was unpleasant to say the least, probably more so for the crew of the 767 on short finals just before they went around. Don't tell me it's just ATCOs that want to ensure crews on the ground understand exactly where "hold short" means, and don't assume that an extra "hold position" is of as little use to all crews as it might be to you.
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Old 12th Oct 2007, 00:01
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can you name another dual-runway airport anywhere near as busy whereby every departure (or arrival, depending on runway in use) has to cross an active runway?
Seattle (KSEA) is potentially similar (moderately busy, two parallel runways, must cross 16L/34R to reach terminal from 16C/34L) - but there does not seem to be serious incursion issue here.

- Robin
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Old 12th Oct 2007, 09:04
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NudgingSteel said:
I do know LHR pretty well and as B&B has mentioned, three terminals are between the departure and arrival runways so the runway crossing is not so much of an issue there.
Apart from 100% of the traffic going to/from Terminal 4 ?

OK maybe I was a little harsh... I don't sit in Manchester tower and I am sure they are just another bunch of pro's doing their best. But where do all these P-I-T-A 'Special' measures come from that they are peddling that clearly are not needed at other medium-busy provincial airports NATS management? MAN Airport PLC?
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Old 12th Oct 2007, 14:31
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Thats why its a trial, in order to determine whether its a genuine improvement or a P-I-T-A as you put it.

I havent read the feedback questionnaire yet so dont know what they are asking, but I guess one of the key items NATS are looking for is do pilots see the real value, ie. will it help or hinder or have no affect whatsoever?
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Old 12th Oct 2007, 15:40
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magplug
its not a bunch of atcos doing their best which cause rwy incursions, its a bunch of pro pilots who are not doing their best, which cause them. We are doing are best to prevent them.
correct me if I am wrong ,the last time I flew from Heathrow ,T4 departures on easterlies depart on 09R therefore no rwy crossing issue.
I see your location is EGLL/KK could that be Virgin

Bitmore right rudder

Thank you for that

Last edited by opnot; 12th Oct 2007 at 18:56.
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Old 13th Oct 2007, 06:51
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Opnot,
what you are forgetting (or omitting) are all the T4 inbounds plus countless towers that cross 09R when it is for departure.
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Old 14th Oct 2007, 12:27
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pilotmike, The trial cell is at Alpha, abeam the Fire Station. The message is triggered in one direction only; by arriving aircraft heading North towards the terminal. Message is 'Approaching Holding Point Alpha 6. Check ATC clearance'.
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Old 14th Oct 2007, 16:03
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Magplug and Geffen - the original point was that when on westerlies at Manch, then every dep has to cross 23R and on easterlies every arrival has to cross 05L, whereas at LHR - it is a portion of the traffic that has to cross an active runway.
I don't know which procedures have got your goat Magplug - but maybe it would be more productive if you raised your specific issues with a Manch person. I think you're being a bit harsh to suggest every Manch atco is aggressive and inflexible without understanding why some of the procs have been brought about.
Just a thought

louby
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Old 14th Oct 2007, 17:22
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GEFFEN
I did not "forget or omit",your words
I used the words" correct me if I am wrong" a very heavy way of correcting someboby.
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Old 15th Oct 2007, 09:53
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BA fit station box in G-CPE* series, no marker audio!
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Old 15th Oct 2007, 12:51
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Opnot,
You were not wrong, in fact I would go as far as to say you, subject WIP and LVP's, are absoulutely correct.
However, I was only pointing out that a lot of traffic still crosses the runway when 09R is for departure.
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Old 15th Oct 2007, 16:00
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Nudging Steel:

"Can you name another dual-runway airport anywhere near as busy whereby every departure (or arrival, depending on runway in use) has to cross an active runway?"

Well, unless things have changed a lot since I was based at JFK some years ago, that is exactly what happens every time 22L/04R and 22R/04L are in use and JFK is a hell of lot busier than Manchester.
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Old 15th Oct 2007, 16:50
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Ditto Newark.
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Old 16th Oct 2007, 11:00
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Magplug

I frankly can't see why Manchester even needed to build a second runway given the low level of traffic. Gatwick manages more movements with one runway (246k p/a) than Manchester (225k p/a) manages with two
Nothing to do with annual movements but with busy hour movements and aircraft mix. When the second runway was being planned and built the peak hour movements especially in the morning were pushing the limits of the single runway in the peaks. The configuration of the old 06/24 in those days had a limited number of Rapid Turn Offs and holding capacity. Movements were being constrained although declared capacity eventually reached the high 40s/hour in some hours. The fact that this was actually achieved is tribute to the skills of ATC at MAN especially with a much bigger variety of aircraft types than LGW.

The fact that peak hour slots were so hard to get actually stopped the development of some new services. When R2 opened in 2001 these constraints were removed but of course the timing wasn't good as life changed after Sept 11th.

In the last couple of years annual movements have been falling but I don't have any info on the demand for peak hour movements. Just shows the business risks that Airports have with major infrastructure. Between committing to R2 @ 250m and completion was 10 years with construction taking 3 years. In that time the world can and did change. By contrast airlines can add (and dispose) of aircraft capacity relatively quickly.

Good to see MAN trialling something which hopefully can be built on to help prevent runway incursions.

Suzeman

Last edited by Suzeman; 16th Oct 2007 at 18:29.
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Old 16th Oct 2007, 21:31
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Sorry, I should have been more specific....of course there are many airports worldwide with multiple runway crossing configurations and much higher traffic flows than we see at most UK airports. I was only thinking about UK airports as so many of our procedures are very different from the USA that direct comparison doesn't apply.
I should have been clearer; thanks to those who took the time to reply and not call me stupid (out loud)
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Old 16th Oct 2007, 22:03
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a-a-a-nd Back To The Topic...

Listened to it myself and yes it is audible. But.. unless it becomes SOP to select the marker ident at all times then, for my tuppence-ha'pennyworth, the kind of series of events that lead to r/w incursions would not be stopped by selecting marker audio. Or in Dunspeak... Would the KLM skipper in Tenerife bothered with such a "trivial distraction"?
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Old 17th Oct 2007, 01:09
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Suzeman
There is a marked difference between declared capacity and achieved rates. Achieved rates were regularly well in excess of 50/hr in the late 90s with a record hour of 60 between 8 and 9am one fine September morning.
Declaring 44/hr and adding ATC flow control into the mix, often meant that departures from the 7-8 hour were pushed back into the 8-9 hour when most of the arrivals were scheduled. With just one runway, this meant lineups for departure and airborne holding. Airborne holding was more regular and prolonged back then, so there was definately a perceived benefit to having two runways even if the capacity didn't go up much.

Magplug
Just because Gatwick doesn't use two runways shouldn't mean that anywhere quieter can't build a second one. What's the magic number?

IMHO the runways shouldn't have been built with the stagger but I'm not a planner just a worker. All over the world parallel runways are built closer and not offset like this (e.g. YYZ 1000'/300m centreline to centreline vs MAN 390m). This would have made a difference in that you could always land on the outer and depart the inner. You'd also have taxiways to the end of both runways.

Last edited by cossack; 17th Oct 2007 at 01:21.
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