320/737 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer
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320/737 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer
From http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/2292829.cms
Conquering the skies at 25
20 Aug 2007, 0001 hrs IST,Manju V,TNN
MUMBAI: It's getting quicker to travel from the right-hand seat of a commercial aircraft's cockpit to the left-hand one. Until about a year ago, pilots in India had to wait till their late 30s to wear the four-striped epaulet of a commander. These days though, they get it all in their mid-20s.
Don't raise an eyebrow if you find a 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer (co-pilot) at the controls of your next flight - it's just part of the latest trend that reflects the changing scape of the Indian aviation industry.
With airlines in the booming industry increasing their fleet, there are more vacancies at the helm. While 20-somethings are commanding single-aisle jets like A-320s and Boeing 737s, pilots are beginning to command 747s in their early 40s, something unheard of in the 1980s.
"Globally, the average age of a jetliner commander is about 45-plus, as a majority of pilots get to fly jets only after going through a long transition process, from single-engine aircraft to multi-engine turbines and finally jets," said Capt R Otaal, general secretary of the Indian Commercial Pilot's Association.
In India, as general aviation flying - on piston and turbine aircraft - hardly exists, pilots start their careers on airline jets. Though this has been the case all these decades, becoming the commander of a jet was still a long process that took five to nine years.
"I flew seven to eight years as a co-pilot before I was promoted to commander. That was how it was with all the pilots in our time. Vacancies were few as airlines did not purchase aircraft and you got a promotion to commander only when someone retired," said Otaal, adding that he was 38 years old and had about 7,000 hours of flying time as a co-pilot when he become an A-320 commander three years ago.
In the last two years though, co-pilots have been turning into commanders within just two years. The reason? "It has to do with the rapid fleet expansion by airlines, which has brought in plenty of vacancies for the top post. In the 1990s, there were about 600 unemployed pilots in the country and the ones employed did not move up the ladder due to a shortage of vacancies at the top," said Captain Ayodh Kapur, retired Air India commander and former director of the Federation of Indian Pilots.
The country's aircraft fleet grew from about 220 in 2005 to 380 in 2007, creating a huge demand for commanders. "Going by a conservative estimate, currently in India about 5% of commanders on single-aisle jet aircraft, like A-320s or Boeing 737s, are under 30 years of age. This trend will only grow," said Otaal.
So what are the rules for becoming a commander in India? According to Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) guidelines, a first officer (co-pilot) can graduate to command a particular aircraft after flying 1,500 hours as a first officer on it.
Although some airlines stick to this rule, others - like Jet Airways, Indian and so on - have raised the bar. But this, too, is being brought down.
"In 1972, an Indian Airlines co-pilot had to fly 4,800 hours to be eligible to become a commander. That was brought down to 2,750 hours in 1996. Now the airline is trying to bring it down to the DGCA minimum of 1,500 hours," said Otaal.
Other contributing factors include the fact that students are taking to flight training early and the process itself is quicker.
"In the 1940s and '50s, it took at least two years to become a pilot and so the youngest pilot was about 22 years of age," said Kapur. These days the training is faster and starts earlier.
Capt Yashraj Tongia of Yash Air, a flying training institute, said, "We launched a special programme for 12th standard students this year under which youngsters begin their paperwork to get a Commercial Pilot Licence much before clearing their HSC exams. The paperwork takes about six months. This way the student can gift himself a CPL on his 18th birthday."
In fact, some students complete their flight training much before they are 18 and then wait for their birthday to apply for the licence.
"At this juncture, when jobs are readily available, every month's delay is an opportunity lost, which the youngsters of today are careful to avoid," said Tongia.
Aviation safety experts are looking at the trend with caution. "If one becomes a commander after flying as a co-pilot for only two monsoons, there is a level of risk involved due to lack of experience."
"One must remember that a 19-year-old co-pilot may be sharing the cockpit with a 25-year-old commander - there are hardly any years of experience between them," said an aviation observer.
"The positive side is that younger pilots have sharper reflexes. In the 1960s, when the world was making a transition from piston aircraft to jets and Air India got its first Boeing 707, many older and much-experienced pilots could not make the transition. It was the younger pilots who did it," said Kapur.
Conquering the skies at 25
20 Aug 2007, 0001 hrs IST,Manju V,TNN
MUMBAI: It's getting quicker to travel from the right-hand seat of a commercial aircraft's cockpit to the left-hand one. Until about a year ago, pilots in India had to wait till their late 30s to wear the four-striped epaulet of a commander. These days though, they get it all in their mid-20s.
Don't raise an eyebrow if you find a 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer (co-pilot) at the controls of your next flight - it's just part of the latest trend that reflects the changing scape of the Indian aviation industry.
With airlines in the booming industry increasing their fleet, there are more vacancies at the helm. While 20-somethings are commanding single-aisle jets like A-320s and Boeing 737s, pilots are beginning to command 747s in their early 40s, something unheard of in the 1980s.
"Globally, the average age of a jetliner commander is about 45-plus, as a majority of pilots get to fly jets only after going through a long transition process, from single-engine aircraft to multi-engine turbines and finally jets," said Capt R Otaal, general secretary of the Indian Commercial Pilot's Association.
In India, as general aviation flying - on piston and turbine aircraft - hardly exists, pilots start their careers on airline jets. Though this has been the case all these decades, becoming the commander of a jet was still a long process that took five to nine years.
"I flew seven to eight years as a co-pilot before I was promoted to commander. That was how it was with all the pilots in our time. Vacancies were few as airlines did not purchase aircraft and you got a promotion to commander only when someone retired," said Otaal, adding that he was 38 years old and had about 7,000 hours of flying time as a co-pilot when he become an A-320 commander three years ago.
In the last two years though, co-pilots have been turning into commanders within just two years. The reason? "It has to do with the rapid fleet expansion by airlines, which has brought in plenty of vacancies for the top post. In the 1990s, there were about 600 unemployed pilots in the country and the ones employed did not move up the ladder due to a shortage of vacancies at the top," said Captain Ayodh Kapur, retired Air India commander and former director of the Federation of Indian Pilots.
The country's aircraft fleet grew from about 220 in 2005 to 380 in 2007, creating a huge demand for commanders. "Going by a conservative estimate, currently in India about 5% of commanders on single-aisle jet aircraft, like A-320s or Boeing 737s, are under 30 years of age. This trend will only grow," said Otaal.
So what are the rules for becoming a commander in India? According to Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) guidelines, a first officer (co-pilot) can graduate to command a particular aircraft after flying 1,500 hours as a first officer on it.
Although some airlines stick to this rule, others - like Jet Airways, Indian and so on - have raised the bar. But this, too, is being brought down.
"In 1972, an Indian Airlines co-pilot had to fly 4,800 hours to be eligible to become a commander. That was brought down to 2,750 hours in 1996. Now the airline is trying to bring it down to the DGCA minimum of 1,500 hours," said Otaal.
Other contributing factors include the fact that students are taking to flight training early and the process itself is quicker.
"In the 1940s and '50s, it took at least two years to become a pilot and so the youngest pilot was about 22 years of age," said Kapur. These days the training is faster and starts earlier.
Capt Yashraj Tongia of Yash Air, a flying training institute, said, "We launched a special programme for 12th standard students this year under which youngsters begin their paperwork to get a Commercial Pilot Licence much before clearing their HSC exams. The paperwork takes about six months. This way the student can gift himself a CPL on his 18th birthday."
In fact, some students complete their flight training much before they are 18 and then wait for their birthday to apply for the licence.
"At this juncture, when jobs are readily available, every month's delay is an opportunity lost, which the youngsters of today are careful to avoid," said Tongia.
Aviation safety experts are looking at the trend with caution. "If one becomes a commander after flying as a co-pilot for only two monsoons, there is a level of risk involved due to lack of experience."
"One must remember that a 19-year-old co-pilot may be sharing the cockpit with a 25-year-old commander - there are hardly any years of experience between them," said an aviation observer.
"The positive side is that younger pilots have sharper reflexes. In the 1960s, when the world was making a transition from piston aircraft to jets and Air India got its first Boeing 707, many older and much-experienced pilots could not make the transition. It was the younger pilots who did it," said Kapur.
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Now the airline is trying to bring it down to the DGCA minimum of 1,500 hours," said Otaal.
Be afraid, very afraid. No amount of talent will convince me that this remotely enough experience for command of a jet. India's gonna have some smoking holes I'm afraid.
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Be afraid, very afraid. No amount of talent will convince me that this remotely enough experience for command of a jet. India's gonna have some smoking holes I'm afraid.
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It's the training thats important - not the age. Different times, different circumstances, I know but I am ex military and we had 22 year old 4 jet transport captains. And they were pretty good too.
I think your prognosis is, unfortunately, correct in this instance.
I think your prognosis is, unfortunately, correct in this instance.
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I had a QFI who much earlier in his career was checked out and flying Phantoms off carriers just before his 20th birthday.
OK, both he and the back-seater (navigator/observer in RN speak) had the bang seat, but still.
OK, both he and the back-seater (navigator/observer in RN speak) had the bang seat, but still.
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Considering that the ATC system in India is operating way over capacity already, and the airport infrastructure is too late catching up with traffic the 1500hr miminum requirement is very low for the operating comditions in that country.
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In the war of course it was different. I seem to remember tht the RAF were happy to offer the priveleges of command to a late relative of mine who completed 32 missions over enemy territory as a Whitley commander (a tour) - before his 19th. birthday. Although I admit there were a few irregularities which enbled him to genuinely be in this position, he did earn a mention in dispatches and the DFC for his efforts!
P.P.
P.P.
I agree that training and a good professional attitude is more important than age. Although it was perhaps a little more unusual then, I remember flying with a young 26 year old Captain on DH Comets back in 1970. He'd been flying since he'd started crawling (
) and he knew his stuff.
) and he knew his stuff.
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i've flown with 29-year old commanders or guys who got their command with around 29 and had only few years in the left seat (not in india, in germany!
).
if you have flown the plane and the routes for some years you know the job, fly-wise. BUT decision-making, leadership and social competence: sometimes
... not always that brilliant. YET it's a character-thing and i really thing that FO-time smoothens your style.
).if you have flown the plane and the routes for some years you know the job, fly-wise. BUT decision-making, leadership and social competence: sometimes
... not always that brilliant. YET it's a character-thing and i really thing that FO-time smoothens your style.
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I am not sure what to say or mean. Experience canīt be bought, it has to be aquired over time - no matter how well the training is. Age is another element. I believe a combination of age and experience is the best recipe....maybe I should add adequate experience. I have seen airlines full of "fresh out of ab-initio training 200 hours guys", and heard their commanders claim they were acting flight instructors in addition to their actual job for the first couple of years......
On the other hand, I did during the mid 1990s fly for an Indian airline. Great people, and a wonderful experience, but I detected a culture I did not like, quite different from the US and Europe. While the youngsters were booksmart I was not convinced with the actual hands on stuff. Position was also a big thing, the respect for their commanders, or should I say the respect demanded by the commanders, did not improve CRM to put it mildly. It was Captain this and Captain that, and much more tense cockpit environment that I had ever seen, before or since.
I would love to take a LOA and return to India on a contract, but until the DGCA lets go of the 500 hours in command thing, it is out of the question. I have 12000 hours plus on adequate equipment, a few thousand of those hurs flown in India, but I still act as copilot for a major European airline due to seniority. However, I dare claim that I would make a better and safer alternative than many of the guys they are forced to upgrade these days.......heck I even have a Indian ALTP somewhere. I once did all the exams in Dehli, and at that time I was one of VERY few non-Indians to ever have flown for a Indian airline.
On the other hand, I did during the mid 1990s fly for an Indian airline. Great people, and a wonderful experience, but I detected a culture I did not like, quite different from the US and Europe. While the youngsters were booksmart I was not convinced with the actual hands on stuff. Position was also a big thing, the respect for their commanders, or should I say the respect demanded by the commanders, did not improve CRM to put it mildly. It was Captain this and Captain that, and much more tense cockpit environment that I had ever seen, before or since.
I would love to take a LOA and return to India on a contract, but until the DGCA lets go of the 500 hours in command thing, it is out of the question. I have 12000 hours plus on adequate equipment, a few thousand of those hurs flown in India, but I still act as copilot for a major European airline due to seniority. However, I dare claim that I would make a better and safer alternative than many of the guys they are forced to upgrade these days.......heck I even have a Indian ALTP somewhere. I once did all the exams in Dehli, and at that time I was one of VERY few non-Indians to ever have flown for a Indian airline.
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I agree, BE VERY AFRAID !
I see lots of new young hot shot FOs coming through these days, and in my experience, it takes a couple of years just for them to settle down ...
I see lots of new young hot shot FOs coming through these days, and in my experience, it takes a couple of years just for them to settle down ...
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Yea..of course he did...he was only up against flak and not serious stuff like Bombay atc and HF...God bless them I wish them all the best doing 1000hrs a year to age 65.
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Controversial
So there is a 25 year old kid with another one in the left flying a plane.....hmm
This is a new treand all over.
Airlines have to pay less and they usually get away with them paying the TR.
The planes fly themselves and if there is a problem.... well probably the guy who design the problem is the only one who knows...
There are fix routes, remember we are talking about bus drivers, with dispatch and everything. No need to make decisions and if they are younger BETTER they will never say NO and in if Indian never ever!
As long as there is a good Chief making procedures and staying on top of the game. The kids will fly ok, now, if the chief is not good.. you could have in very few years the "fly by magic effect" ( somebody told me that that is how is done, but the book said.... forget the book so and so knows best and everyone is doing that way)
This is a new treand all over.
Airlines have to pay less and they usually get away with them paying the TR.
The planes fly themselves and if there is a problem.... well probably the guy who design the problem is the only one who knows...
There are fix routes, remember we are talking about bus drivers, with dispatch and everything. No need to make decisions and if they are younger BETTER they will never say NO and in if Indian never ever!
As long as there is a good Chief making procedures and staying on top of the game. The kids will fly ok, now, if the chief is not good.. you could have in very few years the "fly by magic effect" ( somebody told me that that is how is done, but the book said.... forget the book so and so knows best and everyone is doing that way)
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Captain= Expert?
If you accept the assumption that an airline Captain should be an expert in his/her job then the game changes.
It is accepted in academic circles that becoming an expert requires around ten years of disciplined practice at the task. Before I'm flamed please read articles here
and here
In our terms this equates to around 5000-8000 hours - depending on the type of flying one does.
Knowing the severity of the Monsoon, the lack of infrastructure, poor ATC, high terrain and economic climate in India, taking the train might be a better option than flying with a 1500Hr skipper at the controls!
It is accepted in academic circles that becoming an expert requires around ten years of disciplined practice at the task. Before I'm flamed please read articles here
and here
In our terms this equates to around 5000-8000 hours - depending on the type of flying one does.
Knowing the severity of the Monsoon, the lack of infrastructure, poor ATC, high terrain and economic climate in India, taking the train might be a better option than flying with a 1500Hr skipper at the controls!
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Skeptical
I have not flown with 100h pilot that knows what is doing. In the other hand I evaluate quite a few people with hundreds and thousands of hours and I have seen a bit of everything like people with 300h could not situate him/herself on the approach plate etc.
I do not believe what you are saying ALIEN
. (personal opinion, I am entitle to it) as I do not believe on this crew license business, I personally think is an invention of the airlines pushed thru by $$$$ that they are gonna save
I do not believe what you are saying ALIEN
. (personal opinion, I am entitle to it) as I do not believe on this crew license business, I personally think is an invention of the airlines pushed thru by $$$$ that they are gonna save
Will a young (28 year-old etc) Captain accept this airplane, if it is allowed by the MEL restrictions?
Two guys fly the twin-turbofan, non-automated
jet to your layover city. Enroute a generator failed and after the 1 required reset, it had abnormal indications (volts, freqs, loadmeter and annunc. lights), even though the AC cross-tie and DC switches worked just fine. Maintenance tells the local airport Engineer ('mechanic' for Yanks) to 'MEL' it. If you accept the plane, the old APU must run during the entire flight, in order to be a substitute for the MEL'd generator (which accepted the load when you started the left engine at the gate, so that the highly-skilled Engineer can observe).
Your departure city and the enroute skies have no wx radar returns. But your destination has a mixed warm/cold front, low ceilings and the destination airport might only have approaches to one runway available. Suitable alternate airports are at least 30 minutes away. In case you are down to 1 generator and it fails, your emergency power batteries are guaranteed to provide you with power for 45 minutes.
This is the last (fourth) day of your trip and many passengers have fairly tight connections. The other pilot has two young children at home.
What will the young First Officer say to the Captain when he/she notices MEL in progress, if anything? What will the young Captain say to, or ask the FO, if anything?
Most, if not all heavy maintenance on your fleets is 'outsourced'.
Should not the highly-trained, proficient Captain accept the plane?
What should the young Indian or 'European' Captain do?
This was our situation two days ago.
Two guys fly the twin-turbofan, non-automated
jet to your layover city. Enroute a generator failed and after the 1 required reset, it had abnormal indications (volts, freqs, loadmeter and annunc. lights), even though the AC cross-tie and DC switches worked just fine. Maintenance tells the local airport Engineer ('mechanic' for Yanks) to 'MEL' it. If you accept the plane, the old APU must run during the entire flight, in order to be a substitute for the MEL'd generator (which accepted the load when you started the left engine at the gate, so that the highly-skilled Engineer can observe).Your departure city and the enroute skies have no wx radar returns. But your destination has a mixed warm/cold front, low ceilings and the destination airport might only have approaches to one runway available. Suitable alternate airports are at least 30 minutes away. In case you are down to 1 generator and it fails, your emergency power batteries are guaranteed to provide you with power for 45 minutes.
This is the last (fourth) day of your trip and many passengers have fairly tight connections. The other pilot has two young children at home.
What will the young First Officer say to the Captain when he/she notices MEL in progress, if anything? What will the young Captain say to, or ask the FO, if anything?
Most, if not all heavy maintenance on your fleets is 'outsourced'.
Should not the highly-trained, proficient Captain accept the plane?
What should the young Indian or 'European' Captain do?
This was our situation two days ago.