China Airlines B737 Fire at Okinawa
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From looking at the nhk video, a bomb or fuel tank explosion (as the root cause) is highly unlikely.
Bomb: bombs are placed in the passenger cabin or cargo, for obvious reasons. If the timing's off, they are still powerful enough to cause a significant disruption in the cabin. Every indication so far is that whatever set this off was from outside the cabin.
Center Fuel Tank explosion: same deal. People would not be evacuating from an intact aircraft. Now, it is likely that the center fuel tank "exploded" at some point. Take an "empty" (=fuel-air mixture) fuel tank, start a fuel fire underneath it, and see what happens.
For that matter, there are all kinds of interesting things that happen in fuel fires, as the vapor is considerably more flammable than the liquid. "explosions" and "fireballs" can occur from an action as simple as increasing the amount of fluid poured on the fire (such as a second fuel leak).
Also, the aircraft appears to have been evacuated on the right side only (with the exception of the Captain being "assisted" out the left window), without the overwing exit. Thus, the evacuation implies a left-side, external incident.
Bomb: bombs are placed in the passenger cabin or cargo, for obvious reasons. If the timing's off, they are still powerful enough to cause a significant disruption in the cabin. Every indication so far is that whatever set this off was from outside the cabin.
Center Fuel Tank explosion: same deal. People would not be evacuating from an intact aircraft. Now, it is likely that the center fuel tank "exploded" at some point. Take an "empty" (=fuel-air mixture) fuel tank, start a fuel fire underneath it, and see what happens.
For that matter, there are all kinds of interesting things that happen in fuel fires, as the vapor is considerably more flammable than the liquid. "explosions" and "fireballs" can occur from an action as simple as increasing the amount of fluid poured on the fire (such as a second fuel leak).
Also, the aircraft appears to have been evacuated on the right side only (with the exception of the Captain being "assisted" out the left window), without the overwing exit. Thus, the evacuation implies a left-side, external incident.
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SLF may have found a clue here...
Flight data recorder possibly might have the answer as to the fuel HP valve and/or tank valve positions.
If the fire damage to the engine is not too severe, lines/fittings may well be suspect as well.
Sometimes the smallest clue will lead the investigators in the proper direction and if faults in the design are found, it could have rather serios implications, as a lot of these acft are used worldwide.
Full marks for the crew for getting everyone out in time, and...this should put to rest once and for all the idea in some narrow minded CC (mostly based in Europe) that so-called 'foreign' airlines have less than desirable safety procedures and training.
I have personally (many years ago, from a parallel taxiway) watched an evac of a CI B707 at MNL after a heavy landing and subsequent fire, and the CC performed superbly in getting nearly everyone out in record time.
Japan branch officials of China Airlines said a ground maintenance worker noticed fuel leaking from the back of the engine after the aircraft had landed. "
If the fire damage to the engine is not too severe, lines/fittings may well be suspect as well.
Sometimes the smallest clue will lead the investigators in the proper direction and if faults in the design are found, it could have rather serios implications, as a lot of these acft are used worldwide.
Full marks for the crew for getting everyone out in time, and...this should put to rest once and for all the idea in some narrow minded CC (mostly based in Europe) that so-called 'foreign' airlines have less than desirable safety procedures and training.
I have personally (many years ago, from a parallel taxiway) watched an evac of a CI B707 at MNL after a heavy landing and subsequent fire, and the CC performed superbly in getting nearly everyone out in record time.
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CNN reporting aircraft slide on the runway Media???????
So how about landing on Runway 18 with left crosswind
It is quite bumby on short final on this runway and let say the left engine touch the runway and then a fuel line broke.... and then arriving at the parking ,fire start from the left engine
Just speculating..........
we should know very soon as the black box should be hopefully in good conditions
Anyway very good job from all the crew to evacuate everybody on time
So how about landing on Runway 18 with left crosswind
It is quite bumby on short final on this runway and let say the left engine touch the runway and then a fuel line broke.... and then arriving at the parking ,fire start from the left engine
Just speculating..........
we should know very soon as the black box should be hopefully in good conditions
Anyway very good job from all the crew to evacuate everybody on time
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DingerX - Have not heard so much tripe in a long time! Made me laugh though!
Fire starts.....then tyres blow....plane burns. How the fire started is going to require careful examination of the wreckage.
Fire starts.....then tyres blow....plane burns. How the fire started is going to require careful examination of the wreckage.
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This one is an eye opener for me. It puts to rest the neverending discussion of "should/should not" evacuate immediatelly if you suffer an engine fire on ground. At least for me it does.
I also consider myself very lucky as I have had three fuel leaks on the ground (NG), but none of them caused a fire.
As for a pod strike on the NG, you really have to place the aircraft in some very unusual attitudes to make that happen.
A big
to the the crew!
I also consider myself very lucky as I have had three fuel leaks on the ground (NG), but none of them caused a fire.
As for a pod strike on the NG, you really have to place the aircraft in some very unusual attitudes to make that happen.
A big
to the the crew!
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fire starts.....then tyres blow....plane burns. How the fire started is going to require careful examination of the wreckage.
I stand corrected about the slides.
Well done to the C/C.
As SLF I want to say well done to the cabin crew. I hope that this is widely reported and that it will help my fellow occupants in row 25 pay more attention to the safety briefing in future.
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This is a great piece of film to show to passengers to increase their attention to the flight attendants' pre take off safety briefing.
I remember Helen Muir from Cranfield suggesting that the reason that survivability rate at Calgary may have been higher than at Manchester (two very similar engine fire Boeing 737 runway evacuations in 1985) because a greater proportion of the passengers on the Canadian aircraft had payed close attention to safety briefing and had read the safety card.
I remember Helen Muir from Cranfield suggesting that the reason that survivability rate at Calgary may have been higher than at Manchester (two very similar engine fire Boeing 737 runway evacuations in 1985) because a greater proportion of the passengers on the Canadian aircraft had payed close attention to safety briefing and had read the safety card.
I'm not sure if there is going to be any recorder data if the engines were shut off at the gate.
There seems to be a continuous amount of fuel, which has to be outside of the engine (pylon). I'm not sure how you can get this fuel external from the lines/tanks though without a rupture.
Does anybody have any experience with similar continuous fuel leaks?
There seems to be a continuous amount of fuel, which has to be outside of the engine (pylon). I'm not sure how you can get this fuel external from the lines/tanks though without a rupture.
Does anybody have any experience with similar continuous fuel leaks?
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PAXBOY:
Re your query about continued ops, I would say from a Tower controllers perspective, "most unusual". Our normal response following an accident (though it seems no one died/seriously hurt - I would still call it an "accident") is to close the airfield until everything is well and truly under control. I would think from the video that I saw, where an aircraft is landing(?) in the background, whilst the 737 is well and truly ablaze, by my estimation is unusual.
Also there is the question of RFF resources. If too much of your Rescue Fire Fighting capacity is directed at say a burning 737 on the apron, then what is available for other aircraft operations, not to mention the implied danger of uncontrolled passengers and others running around on the manouevering area.
411A:
I agree entirely with your sentiments re attitudes towards "foreign" CC abilities in an emergency. Maybe the term "Not just a pretty face" springs to mind.
Re your query about continued ops, I would say from a Tower controllers perspective, "most unusual". Our normal response following an accident (though it seems no one died/seriously hurt - I would still call it an "accident") is to close the airfield until everything is well and truly under control. I would think from the video that I saw, where an aircraft is landing(?) in the background, whilst the 737 is well and truly ablaze, by my estimation is unusual.
Also there is the question of RFF resources. If too much of your Rescue Fire Fighting capacity is directed at say a burning 737 on the apron, then what is available for other aircraft operations, not to mention the implied danger of uncontrolled passengers and others running around on the manouevering area.
411A:
I agree entirely with your sentiments re attitudes towards "foreign" CC abilities in an emergency. Maybe the term "Not just a pretty face" springs to mind.
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FDR's are not necessarily wiped clean on shutdown as implied in an earlier post. Modern recorders can log many flights over a period of time - so chances are there will be usable data. CAL fleet is generally very new with best equipment available and maintenance is also quite good - a response to their bad safety record in the past is that management don't take any chances with these things.
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interesting twist:
<<One tour guide from Taiwan said there was already smoke when the plane reached the skies over the Naha airport.
Another guide said she did not notice anything unusual until passengers were helped by CAL crews to escape the plane only minutes after landing.
She said explosions took place when she and others had run about 100 meters away from the plane, which was engulfed with heavy smoke. >>
smoke while inflight? oil leak?
this will be a very interesting case to watch...problems with the airline, or the airplane?
Another guide said she did not notice anything unusual until passengers were helped by CAL crews to escape the plane only minutes after landing.
She said explosions took place when she and others had run about 100 meters away from the plane, which was engulfed with heavy smoke. >>
smoke while inflight? oil leak?
this will be a very interesting case to watch...problems with the airline, or the airplane?
Paxing All Over The World
Bedder believeit Thanks for your reply, I had thought it unusual for operations to continue. I realise, of course, the the JAL would already have been well into it's approach by the time the ground emergency was declared and they may have had limited alternatives with the Okinawa being somewhat isolated. So it may have been the last movement and all others turned away.
With regards to the successful evacuation of pax and crew, I agree that the CC + FC did a fine job but let us also consider that, as the a/c was just pulling onto the stand,all Pax would have been awake, and focusing on getting off anyway. Yes, they then had to get off in a different way but they were already 'mentally' thinking about going to the doors.
Depending upon the exact moment that the emergency was declared, some would already be standing in the aisle. Whereas, if the a/c had been taxying out to the active and then had to pull up short and evacuate - it might have been different. Glad it was a good, fast evac as they had fire on both sides and no time to hesitate.
With regards to the successful evacuation of pax and crew, I agree that the CC + FC did a fine job but let us also consider that, as the a/c was just pulling onto the stand,all Pax would have been awake, and focusing on getting off anyway. Yes, they then had to get off in a different way but they were already 'mentally' thinking about going to the doors.
Depending upon the exact moment that the emergency was declared, some would already be standing in the aisle. Whereas, if the a/c had been taxying out to the active and then had to pull up short and evacuate - it might have been different. Glad it was a good, fast evac as they had fire on both sides and no time to hesitate.
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@25F
Being a SLF too, I'm more frightened by my fellow-pax than by the hazard itself in case of an emergency: in the video, quite a few are carrying a bag while escaping the fire. How can they think their own life, and the life of the crew and other pax, can be as much important as a bag? They just DO NOT THINK. And that's the main danger.
Any expert around to explain this type of behaviour and how to prevent it?
Being a SLF too, I'm more frightened by my fellow-pax than by the hazard itself in case of an emergency: in the video, quite a few are carrying a bag while escaping the fire. How can they think their own life, and the life of the crew and other pax, can be as much important as a bag? They just DO NOT THINK. And that's the main danger.
Any expert around to explain this type of behaviour and how to prevent it?
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Tripe??
DingerX - Have not heard so much tripe in a long time! Made me laugh though!
Fire starts.....then tyres blow....plane burns. How the fire started is going to require careful examination of the wreckage.
Fire starts.....then tyres blow....plane burns. How the fire started is going to require careful examination of the wreckage.
It is not that fanciful. A fuel leak was apparently reported by an engineer - no doubt engines had been shut down by this time.
Fuel leak + hot brakes = fire. (Autoignition temp of jeta1 is 210 degs)
Fire under belly + fuel puddle + explosive source = big fire-ball.
Explosive source could be tyres or hydraulic reservoirs, but these probably lack the power. A hot center tank with residual fuel is a more likely answer.
This is a lot less fanciful than the comments that an engine exploded!! There is no confined space or atomised fuel in an engine that could cause an explosion. JetA1 does not readily explode, it needs to be coerced.
.
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Regarding continued ops at ROAH: The runway was closed until 1100L. Everything was under control by then. This incident was also not near the runway, but at the northern international terminal. Ops to the southern domestics were safe.
Paxing All Over The World
ettore My guess as to why some pax were carrying their hand lugagge was because ... they were planning to disembark in the normal manner. Some would have had their bags in the laps waiting to get off and others would have been standing and had the bags in their hands.
Once again, if the event had happened on departure we might have seen different behaviour.
Once again, if the event had happened on departure we might have seen different behaviour.