Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?
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What good is a seniority list if it is ignored?
We have a seniority list, but still suffer the effects of cronyism and arbitrary assignment of command courses. One single line check or sim report from up to three years prior, submitted by an individual with a dislike for the candidate, can have significant repercussions on selection for command.
The infamous "star chamber" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber) meets to discuss each individual candidate; and one dissenting manager can delay or terminate an individual without requiring to discuss his reason(s).
BelArgUSA:
Cathay does still have some Direct Entry captains flying from the now aborted ASL freighter operation, but they haven't recruited as such since 1Jan2000 - it is wrong to say that CX "relys on a large proportion of DE captains." When ASl stopped recruiting there were about 60 captains on the books - not all of whom were DE. A lot of the DE captains have now retired as they were already above retiring age at their previous airline.
We have a seniority list, but still suffer the effects of cronyism and arbitrary assignment of command courses. One single line check or sim report from up to three years prior, submitted by an individual with a dislike for the candidate, can have significant repercussions on selection for command.
The infamous "star chamber" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Chamber) meets to discuss each individual candidate; and one dissenting manager can delay or terminate an individual without requiring to discuss his reason(s).
BelArgUSA:
Cathay does still have some Direct Entry captains flying from the now aborted ASL freighter operation, but they haven't recruited as such since 1Jan2000 - it is wrong to say that CX "relys on a large proportion of DE captains." When ASl stopped recruiting there were about 60 captains on the books - not all of whom were DE. A lot of the DE captains have now retired as they were already above retiring age at their previous airline.
Last edited by Bograt; 9th Aug 2007 at 14:32.
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Seniority is like democracy.
Churchill once said (I paraphrase); Democracy is the absolute worst form of government that has ever been invented, except for all the other ones.
Seniority underutilizes a lot of talent, but it contributes to flight safety by keeping a lot of crap off the flightdeck. A tradeoff I can live with.
Churchill once said (I paraphrase); Democracy is the absolute worst form of government that has ever been invented, except for all the other ones.
Seniority underutilizes a lot of talent, but it contributes to flight safety by keeping a lot of crap off the flightdeck. A tradeoff I can live with.
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Seniority: for better or for worse.
Seniority for all it's ills is the only way to ensure a fair system of opportunity to qualify for Command. The desirability of the position of Captain {given the years hard work, testing and training and then years of flying crap aeroplanes for crap pay and working for crap management} is mainly due to finally achieving some of the professional respect and recognition both, remunerative and social, that most professionals achieve in at most about 5 -8 years.
Given that everybody wants to be a Captain and that we all (professional pilots flying the line) pass the same tests to {hopefully} the same standards, the only way to prevent the 'conga line of suckholes' that is some companies way of managing a business is to ensure that there is an unbiased criteria for selection for the coveted 'Opportunity to Qualify for Command'
Please remember: It is nothing more than that - 'Opportunity to Qualify for Command'. You still need to make the grade and I am personally glad it is HIGH. Even so, there are pretty variable standards at times, with some getting through or promoted to training/checking positions because of 'connections' rather than suitability. Seniority is not infallible but it is the best solution to a difficult problem.
To those that draw parallels with the corporate world please remember how many 'Executives' die at their desks with all their customers dragged along for the ride. Call me arrogant or what you will but I am an aircraft Commander and daily take on a level of responsibility that would make most 'wannabes' eyes water. I am immensely proud of it and relish the daily challenges professional aviation brings.
How many CEOs make decisions with potential liability in the hundreds of millions, sometimes in just a few seconds and without a team of nodding yes men and dozens of meetings? You want to know about time pressured decision making? Then look in the cockpit of a modern jet airliner on min gas at a piss ant airport with third world ATC and weather at the minima!
I am afraid that a forum filled with, albeit interested and generally well meaning folk, who are NOT qualified as professional pilots is at best a discussion and should not be taken as meaningful in the determination of how we decide who gets to sit in the coveted LHS.
Given that everybody wants to be a Captain and that we all (professional pilots flying the line) pass the same tests to {hopefully} the same standards, the only way to prevent the 'conga line of suckholes' that is some companies way of managing a business is to ensure that there is an unbiased criteria for selection for the coveted 'Opportunity to Qualify for Command'
Please remember: It is nothing more than that - 'Opportunity to Qualify for Command'. You still need to make the grade and I am personally glad it is HIGH. Even so, there are pretty variable standards at times, with some getting through or promoted to training/checking positions because of 'connections' rather than suitability. Seniority is not infallible but it is the best solution to a difficult problem.
To those that draw parallels with the corporate world please remember how many 'Executives' die at their desks with all their customers dragged along for the ride. Call me arrogant or what you will but I am an aircraft Commander and daily take on a level of responsibility that would make most 'wannabes' eyes water. I am immensely proud of it and relish the daily challenges professional aviation brings.
How many CEOs make decisions with potential liability in the hundreds of millions, sometimes in just a few seconds and without a team of nodding yes men and dozens of meetings? You want to know about time pressured decision making? Then look in the cockpit of a modern jet airliner on min gas at a piss ant airport with third world ATC and weather at the minima!
I am afraid that a forum filled with, albeit interested and generally well meaning folk, who are NOT qualified as professional pilots is at best a discussion and should not be taken as meaningful in the determination of how we decide who gets to sit in the coveted LHS.
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merge into a non-seniority totem, but pretend "senority"
A few slots above, Bograt points-out one weakness:
"... What good is a seniority list if it is ignored? We have a seniority list, but still suffer the effects of cronyism ..."
MERGER-list versus a seniority-list
Under the pretense of unionism, many pilots claim their's is a seniority-list. But instead, the merged-list is really a totem -- with their junior pilots placed above the other company's more senior pilots: still they pretend that their's is a "seniority" list.
If a larger group of pilots abandons the "seniority" concept (defined in 1932) during a merger of pilot groups, why not abandon the claim of a "seniority" list?
A more honest description would NOT claim the term "seniority", for a NON-seniority totem of pilots, or bid-list.
"... What good is a seniority list if it is ignored? We have a seniority list, but still suffer the effects of cronyism ..."
MERGER-list versus a seniority-list
Under the pretense of unionism, many pilots claim their's is a seniority-list. But instead, the merged-list is really a totem -- with their junior pilots placed above the other company's more senior pilots: still they pretend that their's is a "seniority" list.
If a larger group of pilots abandons the "seniority" concept (defined in 1932) during a merger of pilot groups, why not abandon the claim of a "seniority" list?
A more honest description would NOT claim the term "seniority", for a NON-seniority totem of pilots, or bid-list.
Nexialist
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On the legality of seniority lists in the EU. John Lewis (a UK department store and supermarket group) has a benefit of 6 months off on full pay (7 and a half if you add normal holiday) after 25 years service, when the new legislation came in, after much consultation with lawyers and govt., it was retained with the deletion of an age qualification. So the principle of longer service gives increased benefits seems secure. What seems less secure is the principle of longer service gives increased salary. A test case would be interesting, and parallels would be drawn with the recent sex discrimination cases about 'equal value of work for equal pay' e.g it could easily be shown that a newly hired FO is less valuable than a 10 year one, but it would be very hard to show that a 9 year FO is less valuable than a 10 year FO.
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Most of the guys that hates seniority are those that pretend to get inside a major airline to be captains right from the start. Big egos instead of big brains. They dont care if they by-pass 100 o 1000 workmates. Most hate unions and will rape their own mother just to wear 4 bars. Why dont wait just like everyone?
Seniority is the only thing that will protect your career as a pilot. On major airlines, where you are FO 8 to 14 years seniority absolutely necessary. Is the only system to avoid injustice. Or to avoid mother rapist. When your turn comes you will be upgrade (Off course only if you pass the command course).
On small or new airlines that expand rapidly is a different story.
Seniority is the only thing that will protect your career as a pilot. On major airlines, where you are FO 8 to 14 years seniority absolutely necessary. Is the only system to avoid injustice. Or to avoid mother rapist. When your turn comes you will be upgrade (Off course only if you pass the command course).
On small or new airlines that expand rapidly is a different story.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Would a manager for, say, Barclay's Bank ever be likely to transfer to another banking house? Is the banking world a fair comparison to aviation?
Seniority lists come into their own when you have a lot of similarly qualified and experienced people all clamouring for a limited number of better jobs, (the LHS).
Seniority lists come into their own when you have a lot of similarly qualified and experienced people all clamouring for a limited number of better jobs, (the LHS).
First off, it is not fair to compare with the corporate world.
In the corporate world, you can try to stand out from the crowd and be a rising star.
We pilots are not meant to be like this. We do our job good, or not. Very black-and white.
We are as well dispensable. If I call in sick, someone with the exact qualifications will be available within one hour.
So, it is a nice job, but we are not valued on our individual performance.
We are expected to be "On Standard", perform "By the Book" etc. Clones, if you will.
I do not lack self respect, but fail to see why I am so much better than many of my colleagues. So who's first to be promoted if seniority is not considered?
In the corporate world, you can try to stand out from the crowd and be a rising star.
We pilots are not meant to be like this. We do our job good, or not. Very black-and white.
We are as well dispensable. If I call in sick, someone with the exact qualifications will be available within one hour.
So, it is a nice job, but we are not valued on our individual performance.
We are expected to be "On Standard", perform "By the Book" etc. Clones, if you will.
I do not lack self respect, but fail to see why I am so much better than many of my colleagues. So who's first to be promoted if seniority is not considered?
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A certain seniority system should be in place while within a company to be able to sort out such things as a bid lines, requests, leave and staff travel for example, however I do believe the current system of say being a Captain or F/O at one airline and not being able to move to a company that is more suitable (money, lifestyle/roster, location, quick command, family matters or whatever) and not be able to retain your current rank is outdated and being used against us, face it, as others have said airlines would have to improve money, lifestyle/roster, location, quick commands, family matters or whatever to keep employees, so not to waste money on training/endorsments and the like. Also not all pilots are after the same thing, as you get older your priorities change so why shouldn't we be able to change companies as our lifestyle changes! Some may stay, some may go but staying because I have to take a demotion or a pay cut to join another company just isn't right.
however I do believe the current system of say being a Captain or F/O at one airline and not being able to move to a company that is more suitable (money, lifestyle/roster, location, quick command, family matters or whatever) and not be able to retain your current rank is outdated and being used against us
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I've always believed the seniority system was something invented by our ex-military friends who cannont bare it unless they are a higher rank than someone else. So having got the maximum amount of stripes they can get, they then have to be able to 'out rank' others because they are 'more senior'. The system sucks and is particularly juvinile in my opinion. Bleating F/Os should understand that people die, get ill, or just get pissed off with the whole industry and leave vacancies for them. Their time will come, if they are good enough. I myself have been party to hideous management 'bullying'. "if you don't like it, you know where the door is", knowing full well that if I walk through the door I would have to join someone else's list at the bottom. I took the door and was lucky, they paid out and I still got a job commensurate with my ability and experiance. Many don't!!
Those guys who have suffered redundancy have my whohearted sympathy.
Can you imagine if you were a senior surgeon doctor at some hospital, not being able to take your skill with you if you moved because you would only get a job as a junior doctor anywhere else. It's absurd.
As one person has already said, perhaps there should be a National seniority list, held by the authority and updated annually depending on what you've done.
Anyone who thinks a seniority list is a good idea has not been the the industry long enough, or never been out of work. Just wait you guys, your time might surely come when like me and others you will curse this disgrace. And while you're waiting, take a gun and shoot yourself in the foot like you have done to the rest of us!!!
Those guys who have suffered redundancy have my whohearted sympathy.
Can you imagine if you were a senior surgeon doctor at some hospital, not being able to take your skill with you if you moved because you would only get a job as a junior doctor anywhere else. It's absurd.
As one person has already said, perhaps there should be a National seniority list, held by the authority and updated annually depending on what you've done.
Anyone who thinks a seniority list is a good idea has not been the the industry long enough, or never been out of work. Just wait you guys, your time might surely come when like me and others you will curse this disgrace. And while you're waiting, take a gun and shoot yourself in the foot like you have done to the rest of us!!!
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Seniority
A very interesting and for a change a reasonably mature debate !!I think BelArgUSA has put forward a very mature point of view with Dan Buston debating it with relevant reasoning. The point here is that NO PROFESSIONAL management can afford to give the position to the lowest bidder.
Direct entry Captains are required from time to time and so would Direct Examiners and Instructors.The comparisons to Surgeons /Scientists/Professors etc is the most appropriate. There is a talent pool .....a National resource which has been built up and if everyone says that the training is pretty similar then I dont understand why we cannot have an ICAO SENIORITY based on no. of your ATPL license/Flying hours/Examiner,Check Pilot, Instructor Status/Accident free flying record/Simulator Reports/Check Rides/Refresher etc etc.At the end of the day in any Airline we always know the good ,professional guys and I dont see why someone should grudge a better guy from getting WHAT HE DESERVES.In the Airline Profession we wear our Seniority on our sleeve....literally !!!!!!
Direct entry Captains are required from time to time and so would Direct Examiners and Instructors.The comparisons to Surgeons /Scientists/Professors etc is the most appropriate. There is a talent pool .....a National resource which has been built up and if everyone says that the training is pretty similar then I dont understand why we cannot have an ICAO SENIORITY based on no. of your ATPL license/Flying hours/Examiner,Check Pilot, Instructor Status/Accident free flying record/Simulator Reports/Check Rides/Refresher etc etc.At the end of the day in any Airline we always know the good ,professional guys and I dont see why someone should grudge a better guy from getting WHAT HE DESERVES.In the Airline Profession we wear our Seniority on our sleeve....literally !!!!!!
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Well, problem number one, who is going to pay for and administer an ICAO seniority system? Those pilots with little or no seniority may offer to pay but those with considerable seniority won't pay and there is no way you will get an international law agreed that says pilots must pay.
It has all been said already, seniority isn't a perfect system but in our industry/profession it is the only system that works and can be seen to be fair.
It has all been said already, seniority isn't a perfect system but in our industry/profession it is the only system that works and can be seen to be fair.
Have to disagree with OnMarkBob's remark regarding the seniority as a system beloved of ex-military guys. Seniority disadvantages ex-mil guys since they may have spent up to 20 years in the military before leaving only to find themselves sitting in the rhs beside some wet-behind-the-ears capt 10 years their junior. If you look at a Big Airline, very few of the guys with long-haul commands are ex-mil. Now it it is true that many ex-mil pilots choose management posts but that option is also open to the purely civil avaiation guys.
ps happy to continue discussion in pub at end of village ;-)
ps happy to continue discussion in pub at end of village ;-)
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I've flown with loads of ex-mil guys who are skippers on Big Airlines 744's, they're just not senior skippers. One could equally say that the non-mil guys are disadvantaged. While Sqn Ldr Smythes was doing 200 hrs a year, living in the mess and having jolly good times flying fast jets around at low level everybody else was slogging their guts out doing 800 hrs per year on the 5 am Paris in the snow. Also why does 20 years in the mil trump the experiece of someone ten years their junior who's been doing real airline flying?
Just an alternative view.
Just an alternative view.
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The only thing I would abandon seniority for is national or global seniority.
Many posts above have outlined all the flaws of promotion by merit and I can't believe anyone could actually believe in that based on actual experience.
Let's keep seniority for the career decisions and as a bias only for "lifestyle" things like rosters and vacation. I am quite senior within my airline and I can live with not having the pick on all the routes, off days, etc. I desire.
As for seniority being detrimental to women, you can simply keep accruing seniority while on maternity leave. Not outrageous, simply acknowledging the fact that we Machos won't give birth to Joe Future Pilot..... Most ladies prefer part-time work anyway, much better to keep your skills honed and a few hours away from diaper world every week don't hurt either.....
There is ample opportunity for merit-based promotion where it's common already, i.e. management pilots like fleet chiefs, etc and instructors. For all those seniority as a bias would be ok. I.e. if you have several people well qualified for a position, you take the senior one first. Nevertheless if the most senior guy lacks instructing skills, you'll take a junior guy who has them.
I don't think seniority is a free lunch for airlines. It serves both management (as an incentive for pilots to be loyal to their company) and pilots (for the same reason). Most posters arguing with better salaries without seniority forget about the lower salaries no seniority would entail (especially in a downturn where those willing to do it for less would stay rather than those at the bottom of the list.)
Seniority may be old-fashioned but so are the laws of aerodynamics. Let's keep the first until the latter get overthrown.
Many posts above have outlined all the flaws of promotion by merit and I can't believe anyone could actually believe in that based on actual experience.
Let's keep seniority for the career decisions and as a bias only for "lifestyle" things like rosters and vacation. I am quite senior within my airline and I can live with not having the pick on all the routes, off days, etc. I desire.
As for seniority being detrimental to women, you can simply keep accruing seniority while on maternity leave. Not outrageous, simply acknowledging the fact that we Machos won't give birth to Joe Future Pilot..... Most ladies prefer part-time work anyway, much better to keep your skills honed and a few hours away from diaper world every week don't hurt either.....
There is ample opportunity for merit-based promotion where it's common already, i.e. management pilots like fleet chiefs, etc and instructors. For all those seniority as a bias would be ok. I.e. if you have several people well qualified for a position, you take the senior one first. Nevertheless if the most senior guy lacks instructing skills, you'll take a junior guy who has them.
I don't think seniority is a free lunch for airlines. It serves both management (as an incentive for pilots to be loyal to their company) and pilots (for the same reason). Most posters arguing with better salaries without seniority forget about the lower salaries no seniority would entail (especially in a downturn where those willing to do it for less would stay rather than those at the bottom of the list.)
Seniority may be old-fashioned but so are the laws of aerodynamics. Let's keep the first until the latter get overthrown.
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I can't agree with On-MarkBob's comment.
As a military chap who is looking to join commercail aviation over the next 12 months, the seniority system fills me with dread. I'm used to working hard to achieve the next promotion and if I don't and I'm not good at my job, I won't get promoted. Makes sense to me! At 37, I am unlikely to find myself in the LHS of any major airline this side of 50; no matter how hard I work, how good a pilot I am or how flexible I remain.
Alternatively, the seniority system that most airlines observe rewards nothing but time done. Pretty much every other industry is capable of recognising hard work and success and yet the Airline Industy says that any other system would by un-managable. Why?
As has been said before, the seniority system is a very socialist approach to a very capitalist industry.
As a military chap who is looking to join commercail aviation over the next 12 months, the seniority system fills me with dread. I'm used to working hard to achieve the next promotion and if I don't and I'm not good at my job, I won't get promoted. Makes sense to me! At 37, I am unlikely to find myself in the LHS of any major airline this side of 50; no matter how hard I work, how good a pilot I am or how flexible I remain.
Alternatively, the seniority system that most airlines observe rewards nothing but time done. Pretty much every other industry is capable of recognising hard work and success and yet the Airline Industy says that any other system would by un-managable. Why?
As has been said before, the seniority system is a very socialist approach to a very capitalist industry.
Garelochheid, is it?
our ex-military friends who cannont (sp) bare (sp) it unless they are a higher rank than someone else . . . . particularly juvinile (sp)
Basil
4th Engineer 1 stripe
Flight Lieutenant 2 stripes
SENIOR First Officer 3 stripes
Captain 4 stripes (Oh, BTW, was SENIOR CAPTAIN GRADE1)*
Oh, no! there are still people SENIOR to me - how can I correct this dreadful anom (check dictionary) anomaly?
Bob, you knew how the system worked when you joined it. Sometimes seniority rules and on others it doesn't (e.g. at interview, some companies outside EU & NA etc)
* It's a time in the airline thing - not an indication of competency (apologies to those who've been telling their friends otherwise)
