Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Should seniority be scrapped in airlines?

Old 7th Aug 2007, 09:49
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That is a very good point and one that is difficult to dispute. Seniority does have its merits and if it is ever going to be replaced at certain airlines, it needs to a better system, not just a more "modern" one.
Say again s l o w l y is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 10:00
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EDDF
Age: 52
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
think twice before you try to scrap seniority...

g´day

sorry to say, but half of the guys who write here, dont have a clue about airlinebiz.. its the half who wants to get rid of seniority...
how do you want to select the guys to the left seat? by flying skills..
big joke, sorry to say but in an decent airline all pilots have way enough skills to fly left and right seat.if not then chance the airline.if the F/Os are good enough only for right seat then something went wrong in the initial selection.
i have been flying 2 years A320 family as F/O, now since 6 years F/O on B744 and could have moved to comand course allready a year ago.had the option on A320 for lowcoster in the company or 767/757 charter also within the company. sorry to say but i like it more to fly a year or so as SFO on B744 and then go to MD11 cargo as commander.if you are in the biz, you know by the options for wich company i work for...
if you start choosing commanders by "skills,proficiency or management abilities" you get a brownnosing,completely management controlled,mafialike company.have fun, i dont want to work in an enviroment like that...one of the best things in seniority is that the management has no influence who becomes commander... think twice about that.. blue skies..
warmkiter is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 10:30
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Compare the seniority system in airlines, to the degraded public school education system known in the USA and other countries since some 40 years ago... In the USA, kids acquire 12 years seniority to receive their high school diploma... They just sit there for 12 years...
xxx
To achieve all this, departments of education had to lower education curriculum levels so that a larger number of students pass... and can get to a college... yet unable to read, and write... But it sounds good when you have a class of little 18 years old monkeys all graduating... Quality education... Some 40 years ago, only 66% graduated from high school, forced to study stupid subjects as physics and trigonometry. So, there was a need to change the curriculums to more intellectual subjects such as "household economics" and "finger painting"...
xxx
Then we send them to some colleges with football teams... and to keep these good football players, we invent degrees in "underwater basket weaving" to be sure that our little monkeys can maintain grade averages to continue to win the championships...
xxx
Airlines are in a sense like that... lower the standards, so you are insured to graduate to command by seniority (only), not by merit...
xxx
Should you not believe me, have a look at the spelling of some here, college graduates and pilots... Oh, if you wish, criticize my English spelling, please do so... (yet I was not born and raised in English)... How is your French and Spanish spelling, by the way...? Better than mine, hopefully...!
xxx

Happy contrails
BelArgUSA is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 11:03
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 4 seasons hotel
Posts: 268
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Without seniority system,pilot's carrier would becomes a 'dog eat dog' world.It is
going to be harder when one grow older.If you can rise faster as an FO then you will fall faster when you are a captain.

With seniority system,promotion path is in a more orderly manner.If the airline is expanding,you promotion is faster.But if the airline is matured,promotion will be slower,you have to jump ship for a faster carrier path.If you have been sitting around waiting years for your command and thinking that seniority is the obstacle of your promotion path,then SHAME ON YOU! You idiot counldn't count!
Simple calculation would pinpoint where you would be by looking at the company fleet plan.Now stop blaming the seniors and pull out that calculator!
flightleader is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 12:30
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: washington,dc
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
seniority options:

date of hire at current airline.

date of first flight as a pilot anywhere (ppl)

putting all names into hat and having sexiest female flight attendant draw names....first drawn equals top seniority.

take a pilot with 19 years seniority and make them junior to someone at a merged airline with 3 years seniority

enforce a meritocracy controlled by management, who would judge you on how many times you "helped out" on your days off. (while denying it...this would encourage a company man concept)

Yes dear friends, there are a bunch of marginal pilots who are senior to you. They are total A$&holes. They aren't very good at airplane knowlege, CRM, and don't leave a good tip at dinner.

But the other options are simply unfair...except for putting all the names into a hat...and you would still get A$#holes senior to you, but then it would be by shear luck.

My airline just merged with another here in the US. My airline made over 200 million profit this last quarter, their airline lost money. THEY claim THEY saved our bacon so they should be senior. The Arbitraitor (remove ARBI) said someone who was 8 years old when I started flying the line would be senior to me.

I'll take the pretty girl with the hat system...at least their is a pretty girl to look at.
bomarc is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 12:46
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I used to think seniority sucked until I got some. In my airline management appointments are largely made through toadying and cronyism and very rarely does a talented individual succeed. Imagine if flying promotions were conducted in that manner.
Hand Solo is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 14:01
  #27 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is really a no brainer and I am curious as to why any one would want to dispense with the seniority system.

When you have the seniority/qualification/experience/ suitability you are assigned a command course, if you pass you get your command, any problems so far?
If you fail you go back and study, usually a year, others will pass you by.

To say that you have seen total losers upgraded on seniority, (BelArg) , suggests to me that the training, not the seniority system, is wrong. If they are no good how come they passed a command course and is that the fault of a). seniority, b). the management or c). the union or d). the training system?

Anyone who feels threatened by seniority probably hasn't got any!

(I exclude merger situations).

Last edited by parabellum; 7th Aug 2007 at 14:07. Reason: forgot about mergers.
parabellum is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 14:06
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Captain BelArgUSA: If the "World's most experienced" airline didn't go belly up in 1991 you'd still be flying your jet clipper and you wouldn't be bad mouthing the ALPA airline seniority system which had made you 747 captain when "your turn" to upgrade was due.
In fact, comandante gringo, I bet that when YOU were way up there in the stratosphere of the PanAm seniority system, that you wouldn't want to give up your cozy bid line to EZE/GRU/GIG/SCL . . . for some junior captain, or would you? Would you take the junior captain's JFK-CCS trip in place of your JFK-EZE flight? . . . Please tell us.
GlueBall is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 14:41
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Sussex
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here we go. So many good posts, different angles. Every system has its good and bad points. However, fair is fair. In my opinion LIFO (last in, first out) should be used for redundancy. Same applies for promotion, first in (higher on the list) gets a shot at his/her command. Reverse for demotion. When he or she gets the command, subject to proficiency, keeps it. If you start promoting people on "merit" (I heard it called other things), it can be subjective. Direct entry it’s great for the guy that already has a command. But I’m sure that if I went to Argentina or anywhere as direct entry captain, the local F/O’s would be unhappy, because it would only delay their promotions. Also who is to say that the criteria for promotion in one company are the same as in another company? Transparency. A list of names with the date of joining to the side of each name is pretty hard to argue with. It (hopefully) avoids funny hand shakes, nepotism of all sorts…. the correct squadron tie…, mates of mates…, etc….etc
Some new pilots believe that they would benefit from that system, so they support it. Maybe some would benefit, but overall it wouldn’t be good for the pilot fraternity.
That’s my halfpenny worth.
In the banker, so shoot!!
Viscount Sussex is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 14:52
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: BRUSSELS
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965), Hansard, November 11, 1947
Now replace Government by Promotion and Democracy by Seniority.
Lemper is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 15:06
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You know , the only people that ever whinge about seniority -are those that don't have it/haven't worked their way up to it....

It's a good way of promoting loyalty within a company and doesn't mean that anyone is less valued or considered.

Every job has to have some kind of perk, and in the airline industry these are becoming fewer and fewer so at least keep the one thing that proves you have done hours/months/years of hard work for your current employer.

The trouble is , in todays pampered to little world, everyone wants everything now, withhout some of the hard work that comes along with certain things.

In a work environment where you have very little direct continuous contact with management, it's just a way of acknowledging your longstanding and appreciated time with your company.

If you aren't / weren't in the right place at the right time, then that is no more your colleagues fault than anyone elses......

Happy Landings.
Anti-ice is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 15:34
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
One of the problems in todays industry is the seemingly reducing T & C's. Something that the seniority system does nothing to combat. In fact it makes it harder to resist, since most people would usually vote with their feet if treated badly, but with the seniority system you could lose too much.

Loyalty should work both ways, something that companies like Ryanair should learn. (If there was an argument for a strong pilot body and something like a seniority system that would be one!)

As I've said, I don't think seniority is perfect, but it does seem to be the best that is available at the moment, but it is by no means perfect. A hybrid system that took length of service into account, but also took competance and further training into it.

Younger, less experienced pilots are more likely to be "anti", simply because they have less to lose. It doesn't make their comments less valid though.

wrt, comments about management structure. As an F/O you fly everyday with your immediate line manager, the problem is that this person is different all the time. I think this structure is one of the problems in this business and one of the prime causes of the "them and us" antagonism that can go on between flight deck and more senior management.

There is no/little relationship between "head office" and flight deck unless there is a problem, which normaly ends up in finger pointing and bad tempers and a loss in respect.

I know some companies do have differing ways around it, but most of them seem to be not that successful. Though this is gettin away from the issue of seniority lists somewhat.
Say again s l o w l y is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 15:48
  #33 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post


A meritocratic system of seniority might be acceptable in a company or organization whose employees were individually and directly linked to profits with precise accountability to shareholders.
This system of profit generation and accountability is not the norm to be found in airlines in particular or indeed in civil aviation in general. Where growth and profitability are not directly linked to the efforts of one specific person there can be no other system of seniority than the one in which company loyalty and service are rewarded, in the fullness of time and taking into account the ability of the employee to move up the chain of command through each link of seniority. An old navigator of deep acquaintance used to opine that flight decks these days were far too full of fresh faced flying carpet baggers who could neither tell the difference between an air plot transfer and a fart in the Heathrow tunnel nor distinguish a Polar Stereographic from granny's cherry pie.
'Merit,' he would say ' is for First Officers, let them fight among themselves if they must in their over modulated disintegrated fashion'.
'Background is for Commanders and seniority in that regard can only come with time.'
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 16:41
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: CGN, EDDK
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In engineering / maintenance how would you describe merit? The guy who signs off any dodgy fix and never has a MX delay? who will work 48 hour shifts on overtime just to get a plane out (you guys like to fly a plane where somebody has been working on for 30 plus hours without a break or sleep?) Or the guy who does his work the best way possible, but refuses to sign off a plane that in his informed opinion is not airworthy and refuses to work when he is tired and dangerous?

Jan
MD11Engineer is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 17:16
  #35 (permalink)  
John Wayne
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Actually, seniority does suck. It's an outdated, pathetic, numbers game with no more foundation in proficiency than driving a big wheel at your local fair. Unfortunately, there is (thus far) no better system available to us pilots with which to replace seniority, and so we're stuck with it.

Live with it; you may well find it a case of the devil you know.
 
Old 7th Aug 2007, 17:45
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great! Now as the Flight Manager I can let my good drinking buddy, who's flown here for 12 months, fly when and where he wants. In fact, next month I'm upgrading him to Cap'n. Now John, on the other hand, who has been here three years, personally and off the record, I'll admit he's a great pělot. But I don't like him. First of all, he doesn't even like to drink. He didn't even send my wife a happy birthday card for her last birthday. No, I think I'll even cancel his upcoming vacation and ....
Bob Lenahan is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 19:01
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Devil

Obviously a very emotive subject. Seniority is far more useful to airlines than it is to pilots.

Yes, length of service SHOULD be recognised & rewarded, including as one of the considerations among others for upgrading.

No, it shouldn’t limit movement between airlines, (I’m not for one minute suggesting that there’s a conspiracy between airlines to fix the market price! – They would never do that would they? )…

What if pay was based on transferable career experience? For example, what if airlines were to use pay scales based on factored Total Time, using a system similar to Easyjet’s recruitment requirements?

We would have all the benefits of length of service being rewarded when it comes to holiday allocation etc. but pay reflective of our experience, regardless of how many times we’ve switched companies or have been made redundant.

If the pilot shortage is as suggested on other threads, any new start-up or existing company adopting this system would soon attract experienced and competent crews at a market rate, and crews would be motivated to work more hours to get to the next pay scale.

Of course, under such a system airlines would lose crews just as easily if they didn’t remain competitive, which is exactly why they prefer the current system,... to have us by the short & curlies
PPRuNeUser0183 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 21:28
  #38 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,125
Received 58 Likes on 48 Posts
witchiepoo
How about promotion and employment based on the system the rest of the corporate world uses - test results, experience, and references.
This gave me a fine laugh.

I am not a pilot but spent 27 years in corporate life. I worked in IT in retail, local government, City of London financial district, freight companies etc. as well as working with (and in) four countries, two of them outside of Europe.

I have seen people promoted because they were the absolute best for the job as well as because it was 'their turn' and the company knew that if they denied the promotion again, they lose the person. Since the person had lots of experience and knowledge of the company - that would be bad.

I have also seen that, when a person is promoted, it is often the worst thing for them. There is a commonplace saying that, if you promote your best salesman to Sales Manager, then you have just gained a bad Sales Manager and lost your best salesman.

The corporate world promotes people on all the usual things: Greed, favouritism, nepotism, ignorance, bribery, self-interest, hatred for the company - the lot.

Say again s l o w l y
When people say "Human Resources" in flying circles, it is usually followed up by a sneer or sarky comment, but that is really due to not understanding what HR is really all about. (BTW, I'm not in HR)
In almost all the companies I have worked for (or now come into contact, whilst being self-employed) also follow 'HR' with a sneer or sarky comment!

The only thing to be sure of is that, like all things human, one day seniority will change. So it is not a question of "Is it a good thing?" but "When will it go for legacy carriers?"
PAXboy is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 21:50
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Blackburn
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With legislation changes within the EU regarding age discrimination, I understand that a by product of this legislation, promoting people on time served is under threat if not already against the law (not a legal eagle, so pls forgive if not true).

How will this affect pilots seniority lists within the EU? I believe that concessions based on time served is also under threat?

Any info appreciated.
Psr777 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2007, 22:31
  #40 (permalink)  
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This nugget has been doing the rounds for several years. It's not correct. The legislation was not intended to throw current seniority systems into disarray. This has been admitted. Besides- it is going to take people taking this to Court, and eventually the European Court, at enormous expense. Who is going to pay? The Unions? No- not with many of their members happy with promotion based on seniority. People have been saying for years seniority based concessions and promotion will have to end. It's not happening and it's not going to. You will not see it in your lifetime. This rumour/gossip is being endlessly recirculated.
Rainboe is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.