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KLM nose gear stuck down

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KLM nose gear stuck down

Old 4th Aug 2007, 22:27
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KLM nose gear stuck down

Has anyone got details of the KL 744 return out of LAX- nose gear stuck down - fuel dump- standard return- no silly near-death newspaper stories yet?
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Old 4th Aug 2007, 22:38
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whoops - push-back nose gear pin left in perhaps!!
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 00:35
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Eh? The pin stops the lefty/righty. Not the upy/downy.
Back to the drawing board!
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 01:31
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better down than up i say.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 02:02
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better down than up i say.
Not what my wife says....
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 02:31
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Maybe?

Eh? The pin stops the lefty/righty. Not the upy/downy.
Back to the drawing board!


In 20 years on the job I have (unfortunately) seen/heard of 3 instances of nose gear down lock pins left in place for dispatch, thankfully not involving myself.

On all occaisons only nuisance value to the crew and pax alike for the ATB (no fuel dumps or over MLW conditions) but a thorough bullocking (in context of course) for the gingerbeer involved along with the ensuing embarassment. I imagine the tech crew had a fire side chat with the boss for missing it as well on their walkaround inspection.

However being a 747 it is "possible" to miss a fitted nose gear down lock pin due to its location along with some deft alignment of the holes in the cheese.

The high fuel uplift for sector adds to the drama.

Only speculating of course.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 03:01
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Beach report...

50 tons of Jet A in the ocean...
Who forgot the pin...?
Oh yes, right, no more F/E on your planes...
xxx
I dont recommend you eat any fresh seafood tonight, in Santa Monica, might not taste too good.
However, this takes care of any mosquito problems around Venice Beach...
Dank U wel, KLM...
xxx

Happy contrails
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 10:06
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The 'uppy-downy' pin is also known as the nose-gear locking pin - it should have a long streamer attached. The 'lefty-righty' pin is the nose-gear steering pin and has a shorter streamer. It is not unusual to see all pins still inserted during the pilot's walk-around check, especially if the a/c has just been towed onto stand. It should be part of the pre-start checks to confirm with the ground personnel that all gear pins have been removed and steering pin inserted. It is not the first time this has happened and will not be the last time - but at least it is safe! By the way, fuel jettison for events like this is an option, depending on the airlines' SOP's and the Commanders' decision.
Of course, it could be due to an engineering defect in the system.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 10:29
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For what itís worth.
In my loco, installing the 'uppy-downy' pin is a separate techlog entry. Works
pretty well I guess as we havenít had the embarrassing situation ever since.

Lorel
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 10:41
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It was out of SFO not LAX and it dumped fuel over land in the Modesto area. Some pictures on another forum.......

http://www.airliners.net/discussions....main/3523366/
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 12:44
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50 tons !!
Dumped due to NLG Down .

2 Pilot crew or 2 Autopilot crew?

Apart from some noise in cockpit,
slower cruise speed (to be offset by dump fuel time)
and small range differance due to NLG (only NLG down),

why not continue to next suitable airport within the range of those 50 tons ?

Do not tell me please , "Safety !!!" ,
or
"Ah we do not have that it in check lists".
 
Old 5th Aug 2007, 14:05
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Operational decisions...

Dear Green Guard /
xxx
In non-emergency situations, with airlines, the way decisions are made, are not up to the captain, but the operations manager. or whoever is on duty for that position... In the case of KLM, after takeoff, and NLG not retracting, the captain probably advised Amsterdam about the situation and the options available... Amsterdam's decision was "go back" and land...
xxx
If we have any non-emergency problems, we call the operations office in Buenos Aires, and get "the monkey" on their back... Their decision, their responsibility. If I would take a decision, maybe someone in Argentina would tell me (1) why did you not proceed instead of going back...? - or... (2) why did you not call us and ask us before taking your decision...?
xxx

Happy contrails
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 15:30
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When I worked as a ramp rat many moons ago at CYYZ, it was always mandatory, after the push, tug disconnect, that the aircraft marshaller holds the aircraft, until all the equipment is clear. Once all equipment/staff are clear, the steering disconnect pin is shown to the crew, who would acknowledge it with a wave.

The only time I saw a gear lock pin in place was in the hangar. Never on stand.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 16:17
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We turned up at a 747-200 to fly HKG-KWI, swarms of engineers around aircraft changing mainwheel tyre in the dark. Work complete, F/E does walkaround (in the dark), off we go- one main leg won't retract (going out through the gap). Much raising/lowering- all tricks, no budging. Landed back after 1 hour, no jettison. The engineers had put a piece of wire coathanger in the maingear lock which the F/E just did not see 12' above ground, buried in undercarriage bay in the dark, with bright lights all around the airport. Result, one severely chastised F/E within inches of his job and well shouted at, with books thrown at head. Wrong of the ground engineers, but ultimately undeniable that F/E was responsible. Very sad, but it happens.

As for continuing to next convenient destination on way home, not on. The gear and doors being down means noise, discomfort, and no real way of knowing fuel requirement, fuel useage etc.- FMS does not compute gear down cruise. Also, will staff be available at next stop? They will probably have gone home and had a drink. It's actually cheaper and easier to land back, sort the problem out at your airlines terminal than try and make next stop, wherever that may be.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 18:58
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Its a requirement to fit the nose gear down lock pin (as well as the steering bypass pin) for towing purposes.
Not in my company!
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 19:49
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not stuck nose gear but "bodygeartilt" message was supposedly the start of problems, any 744 drivers to explain?

Last edited by Sensible Garage; 5th Aug 2007 at 19:59.
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Old 5th Aug 2007, 23:22
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From the Boeing 747-400 non-normal QRH for 'Gear tilt'
Do not retract landing gear
Observe gear extended limit speed (320/.82M)
Do not use FMC fuel predictions with gear extended.
This is makes more sense than an a/c departing with a nose-gear locking pin still in place and furthermore justifies the need to divert back to an airport capable of handling a serious delay (with passengers) and having good maintenance facilities available.
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Old 6th Aug 2007, 09:50
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Betcha twas a body landing gear tilt actuator attach bolt snapped....

Offers?
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Old 7th Aug 2007, 13:56
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Gear down

On a B747 400 if you get a "body gear tilt" msg the gear will not move whatever you do!! I betit was just a prox switch fault
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Old 7th Aug 2007, 20:16
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I'll take your offer ASFKAP, and raise you twenty.
My money's on the bolt snapped first causing damage to prox sensors when the truck over-rotated after airborne. Prox sensor would then never come into "near".
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