TAM A320 crash at Congonhas, Brazil
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fox niner
RETARD is often heard on landing - it is a reminder to the pilot to retard the thrust levers.
The autobrake will not disarm upon touchdown. Read post no. 585 to understand the systems better.(page 30).
But it is not necessary, nor is it SOP, and the shallower approach can lead to floating. And perhaps asking a brand new PNF to inhibit the G/S warning at about 300' could be descibed as unwise?
TP
The CVR transcript also has "RETARD, RETARD, RETARD" in it. This means that the thrust lever(s) were not idle, causing the autobrakes to disarm upon touchdown, and the spoilers to remain retracted.
The autobrake will not disarm upon touchdown. Read post no. 585 to understand the systems better.(page 30).
Furthermore, going under the GS makes perfect sense.
TP
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flyingnewbie10
This is done by upgrading the FWC software or the FWC itself - don't have the knowledge to say which - but it can be done on any A320.. the investigation will tell us whether the ECAM warning occurred.
TP
The alarm (one engine in Thrust reverser X the other above idle) was created by Airbus after the TransAsia Airways in Taiwan.
Could(Should) it be inserted in planes made prior to the FWC standard H2F3 (this one being the first in which the alarm was implemented in) ?
Could(Should) it be inserted in planes made prior to the FWC standard H2F3 (this one being the first in which the alarm was implemented in) ?
TP
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It's late this evening... forgive me a thought....
One accident and two hundred died...
On average, on scheduled flights, worldwide, less than a thousand people die each year.
On French roads alone, more than five thousand people die each year in traffic accidents.
On this topic, there are already nearly 900 posts from people trying to understand, trying to explain, trying to figure out ways to prevent this kind of accident happening ever again.
How I wish there was such a forum dealing with traffic accidents, even if each accident wouldn't merit 900 posts.
And how I wish the professional attitude here could be translated to other ways of life.
Please don't answer. I don't want to interrupt the thread.
And if a moderator thinks it inappropriate, please delete it.
CJ
One accident and two hundred died...
On average, on scheduled flights, worldwide, less than a thousand people die each year.
On French roads alone, more than five thousand people die each year in traffic accidents.
On this topic, there are already nearly 900 posts from people trying to understand, trying to explain, trying to figure out ways to prevent this kind of accident happening ever again.
How I wish there was such a forum dealing with traffic accidents, even if each accident wouldn't merit 900 posts.
And how I wish the professional attitude here could be translated to other ways of life.
Please don't answer. I don't want to interrupt the thread.
And if a moderator thinks it inappropriate, please delete it.
CJ
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The 737/Legacy accident
I donīt want to change the subject but someone mentioned this accident last year. Again, as a Brazilian I am embarassed if not ashamed. I was shocked by the accident and as soon as it happened the Minister of Defense (who oversees the Armed Forces and who knows nothing of aviation) was in TV placing the blame on the American Pilots in the Legacy plane. What an absurd: he was saying that the pilots placed the Transponder OFF in order to do stunts with the new plane and this was the cause of the colision. Can you imagine! When I saw that I became very interested and still am to see how the investigation was going to take place. Again a lot of people involved, Federal Police, Local Police, House of Representative Committee, Senate Committee and CENIPA. So far a final report has not been issued (NTSB is participating). There has been a lot of conflicts between the Air Traffic Controllers (the great majority Sargents from the Air Force) and the Air Force Higherups. The Federal Police (who knows nothing about aviation) has indicted the two US pilots and four controllers, the same with the House Committee. I am following this very closely but here is not the place to go into all the info I have gathered in this almost one year. Someone may say that dirty laundry should be washed at home but in these cases I am a believer that the international community can help in the search for understanding, prevention and justice.
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Hello,
So ...finally ..after past hours and hours reading from the begining all the posts here (and taking anotations to be able to link things together) I have now a idea where all those speculations and preliminary reports drive...
It's two solutions:
Or it's a misconception of the Airbus system
Or it's a pilot(s) error.
I'm ready to bet my membership of PPRUNE in which direction all fingers will be pointed when the time of speculations will be at his end.
You have sure ..already find which direction.
Regards.
So ...finally ..after past hours and hours reading from the begining all the posts here (and taking anotations to be able to link things together) I have now a idea where all those speculations and preliminary reports drive...
It's two solutions:
Or it's a misconception of the Airbus system
Or it's a pilot(s) error.
I'm ready to bet my membership of PPRUNE in which direction all fingers will be pointed when the time of speculations will be at his end.
You have sure ..already find which direction.
Regards.
I support PPRuNe
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Car accidents
Christian. you made a good point. Here in Brazil the mortality from car accidents is indeed very high and it would be impossible to spend all this time on each one. Indeed it is like a war. When I worked in the USA (many years) almost every family had some member that was lost or hurt in a war. In Brazil this happens with car accidents. However the disaster with an airplane and 200 deaths is indeed more shocking by the numbers (they now have planes with 800 passengers...) and I believe we are spending so much time on this disaster because we have an special interest in aviation and many here are pros. So I understand why we are focusing on this so much. I am not that interested in spending too much time trying to understand a car accident...only in trying to understand why so many.
There's 19.2 seconds from "sound similar to touchdown" to "sound of crushing noises"
It took the crew just 2 seconds to notice "spoilers nothing" and about 6 more seconds to fully realise that they had no deceleration -- reasonable human performance.
They were left with 11 more seconds before going off the end.
Question for the AB people: What is the SOP when you realise you have no spoilers?
Perhaps reverse should not be selected before seeing spoilers deployed in order to preserve the option of taking it back up?
It took the crew just 2 seconds to notice "spoilers nothing" and about 6 more seconds to fully realise that they had no deceleration -- reasonable human performance.
They were left with 11 more seconds before going off the end.
Question for the AB people: What is the SOP when you realise you have no spoilers?
Perhaps reverse should not be selected before seeing spoilers deployed in order to preserve the option of taking it back up?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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It appears that
"People can hear something [in the voice recorder] that thrust lever does not leave the place, its locked, said to the CPI of the Aerial Apagão"
has not been included in the transcript.
PS Thanks, Tyro - reliable as ever!
"People can hear something [in the voice recorder] that thrust lever does not leave the place, its locked, said to the CPI of the Aerial Apagão"
has not been included in the transcript.
PS Thanks, Tyro - reliable as ever!
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Or it's a pilot(s) error.
Yes, there's human error, for certain, but to quote my mate Sid, "no-one goes to work to die".
Fundamentally, and this really is kindergarten HF stuff: people behave as they do because it makes sense to do so.
Remove a pilot from the tactile/sensory/perceptive loop of thrust control and awareness by having stationary thrust levers, then convince him that an action after landing must be performed on only one lever, but allow him, very naturally indeed, to confuse which of the two intended actions he must not do, and yes, you'll have an accident. The pilot won't have a clue about what's going on because there's a horribly deep disconnect between his mental model and the real world - in all its terrifying real-time building-rushing-towards-us glory.
There are a few very deep holes in the Airbus design philosophy. Likewise in Boeing's.
In a Boeing aircraft, we find out about them by experience and training, in light of awkward moments (please don't anyone raise the Helios story here - there are straightforward answers to that).
In an Airbus, we seem to find out about them by fatal accidents.
Can you now cease this pointless discussion?
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@RatherBeFlying
Perhaps reverse should not be selected before seeing spoilers deployed in order to preserve the option of taking it back up?
TR are most effective when the aircraft has just touched down and is about to decelerate.
Second thing is the ground spoilers and then the wheel braking system whether by autobrake or manual braking.
Last edited by Config Full; 1st Aug 2007 at 22:11. Reason: added "short"
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"Decelerate!"
From another forum:
"There is something I don't get from the transcript.
18:48:33.3
HOT-1 look this.
18:48.34.4
HOT-2 decelerate, decelerate.
18:48:35.9
HOT-1 it can't, it can't.
My point is: "Look this" means something is weird ? What could the pilot be refering to ? And the answer, decelerate, decelerate. Decelerate is not break, right? Wouldn't decelerate mean pull back the throtle? And if that is the idea, why the answer I can't, I can't ?
Is the throtle locked in it's position and can't be moved ? Is it already at idle but acting as if it were not ?"
Please, comment. Thanks.
rbonatto
"There is something I don't get from the transcript.
18:48:33.3
HOT-1 look this.
18:48.34.4
HOT-2 decelerate, decelerate.
18:48:35.9
HOT-1 it can't, it can't.
My point is: "Look this" means something is weird ? What could the pilot be refering to ? And the answer, decelerate, decelerate. Decelerate is not break, right? Wouldn't decelerate mean pull back the throtle? And if that is the idea, why the answer I can't, I can't ?
Is the throtle locked in it's position and can't be moved ? Is it already at idle but acting as if it were not ?"
Please, comment. Thanks.
rbonatto
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regarding going below the glideslope:
in an ideal world, no one would. but this airport , along with chicago midway are two examples where it might make sense.
the plane appears to have landed in the touchdown zone. and whether or not someone was new in the plane shouldn't confuse anyone with over 10,000 flying hours as the men both had.
in an ideal world, no one would. but this airport , along with chicago midway are two examples where it might make sense.
the plane appears to have landed in the touchdown zone. and whether or not someone was new in the plane shouldn't confuse anyone with over 10,000 flying hours as the men both had.
@Config Full
I can agree with that if I know for sure that the spoilers will deploy. But if the spoilers do not deploy, what then?
If reverse has not yet been selected, I have the option to take it back up and sort out the problem.
If reverse has been selected, I no longer have that option.
I am waiting to hear from AB pilots what can be done next to assure a stop on the remaining runway if the spoilers fail to deploy.
Reverse thrust is the first thing you want to see on a short wet and slippery runway.
TR are most effective when the aircraft has just touched down and is about to decelerate.
TR are most effective when the aircraft has just touched down and is about to decelerate.
If reverse has not yet been selected, I have the option to take it back up and sort out the problem.
If reverse has been selected, I no longer have that option.
I am waiting to hear from AB pilots what can be done next to assure a stop on the remaining runway if the spoilers fail to deploy.
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Reverse thrust is the first thing you want to see on a short wet and slippery runway
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regarding going below the glideslope:
in an ideal world, no one would. but this airport , along with chicago midway are two examples where it might make sense.
in an ideal world, no one would. but this airport , along with chicago midway are two examples where it might make sense.
You're much more likely to land long.
Again, the poster here is fundamentally wrong.
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@RatherBeFlying
This to illustrate the different forces of deceleration available to an aircraft and their maximum effectiveness during aircraft rollout in wet conditions.
Arrasto= drag in landing configuration, ground spoilers extended,...
Reverso= Thrust reversers
Freio= Brakes
This diagram appeared in a procedure of the Brazilian Civil Aviation (ANAC) dated Jan. 31, 2007 on the operation of jets in wet conditions on the runways of Sao Paulo.
Question for the AB people: What is the SOP when you realise you have no spoilers?
As far as I am concerned they made one huge mistake not retarding that T/L but once they landed with no spoilers and no autobrake on that short and slippery runaway their fate was pretty much sealed. Even if they had killed the forward thrust (which for some strange reason they did not) I'm pretty sure they would have overshot. Hopefully someone with more expertise will do the math and disprove me...
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying
There's 19.2 seconds from "sound similar to touchdown" to "sound of crushing noises"
They were left with 11 more seconds before going off the end.
And think about those twenty seconds. It might have been you.
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This diagram
It's possible to do this analysis for any given landing for which there's decent FDR data - and no trace I've ever seen looks like that...
(This is like shooting fish in a barrel...)
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What is the SOP when you realise you have no spoilers?
In one turboprop (at least - anyone care to guess which?) there is a procedure for a similar situation, but it's very much warned-against...
