Article by Simon Calder of the Independent
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I think junior doctors probably do work longer hours in some instances, but to suggest that pilots work short hours simply gets it wrong, and some quick research, on this site alone, around the subject of fatigue, would (should) have left any sensible and fair writer going back to his keyboard. 
Still, it's in the newspapers now, so it must be true. We can expect to have to prepare ourselves for comment from non aviation professionals (and some cleaners too, no doubt) who have happened accross this article.
Still, it's in the newspapers now, so it must be true. We can expect to have to prepare ourselves for comment from non aviation professionals (and some cleaners too, no doubt) who have happened accross this article.
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boring boring boring....if its not M O'Leary winding you up its someone else. Why do you get so upset if you say its not true?? Just leave it alone - you cant be too tired if you all have time to write letters and get flustered - if you were that knackered you wouldnt be bothered!!
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No Flexy, its just that morons like yourself are so easy to convince....particulalry if you read the independent, or the Guardian
How about Flexy I call you a lazy blowhard, with a fetish for young boys? do you feel the need to correct me?
muppet
How about Flexy I call you a lazy blowhard, with a fetish for young boys? do you feel the need to correct me?
muppet
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Why do you get so upset if you say its not true??
Rather than make sweeping statements about working conditions, why not just ask professional pilots? At least that chap from the BBC came on here and did that when he was researching fatigue. Frankly, looking at the article, and the style in which it is written, I am not sure the writer would have had an open mind anyway - a bit like you eh Flexy?
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Although only a PPL , I've emailed the Independent to complain. I know from people who are professional pilots how hard they work and this comment was more suited to a tabloid than a sensible newspaper like the Independent.
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I find myself almost hoping that some of the people posting above, with all your righteous indignation at the error over 900 hours, will find themselves in an operating theatre in the hands of an anaesthetist who is entering her 16th hour of continuous duty (that means real work, ie no breaks beyond 10 minutes, no rest, mostly no sitting down, not "duty" as understood in FTL), monitoring the life or death of a patient. An error of a few milligrams, if she makes it, might kill you. Probably will, in fact. If she loses her exclusive concentration on a large number of parameters monitoring your condition for more than 60 seconds, that too could be the end of you. She is doing this for the 5-15th time, or thereabouts, in this single duty period.
She is paid about $35K a year, is solely responsible for what she does, and will be thrown to the wolves if you die as a result of a moment's inattention or tiredness, by the surgeon, by her department boss and by the Trust (strange word) that employs her. People will howl for her blood, with your family in the lead.
She may also be out of a job later this year, or have to go overseas, because the Trusts find it cheaper, or rather are forced by Gordon Brown's cutbacks to employ badly-qualified foreigners instead of offering a career to those the Government has trained at huge public expense. (Ironic, that, isn't it, in the light of events?)
Now, there you go, that's over. Back to your private whingeing, chaps, about how tough your life is. Don't mind me. Just don't need an operation, or if you do, pay for it privately out of your allowances.
Sorry, not quite over. I really do hope that the cretin who posted
may one day realise that when you have not eaten, rested or slept during the 19 hour shift, and have to start another one in 8 hours time, there is no time for proper meals and the benefit of not having time zone changes or climate changes is minimal. You simply buy a garage sandwich, eat it and collapse into bed. Or at least that's what the anaesthetist referred to above does. When you go into hospital for an operation or after an accident, don't forget to have a discussion with the doctors about your opinions, will you? They'll welcome your input.
She is paid about $35K a year, is solely responsible for what she does, and will be thrown to the wolves if you die as a result of a moment's inattention or tiredness, by the surgeon, by her department boss and by the Trust (strange word) that employs her. People will howl for her blood, with your family in the lead.
She may also be out of a job later this year, or have to go overseas, because the Trusts find it cheaper, or rather are forced by Gordon Brown's cutbacks to employ badly-qualified foreigners instead of offering a career to those the Government has trained at huge public expense. (Ironic, that, isn't it, in the light of events?)
Now, there you go, that's over. Back to your private whingeing, chaps, about how tough your life is. Don't mind me. Just don't need an operation, or if you do, pay for it privately out of your allowances.
Sorry, not quite over. I really do hope that the cretin who posted
The junior doctor gets HOME after his 19hr shift, can eat proper meals and not experience climate/timezone changes.
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Capot,
Slightly acidic, what's the matter?
Why earn Ł35K if you can earn Ł100K(!), you have to ask yourself!!!
Also you're missing the point entirely.
We fly a 150-500 people at a time, not just the one patient!
We MUST NOT BE FATIGUED at all when at work.
Would you like to fly with me on my day 6, sector 4???
Slightly acidic, what's the matter?
Why earn Ł35K if you can earn Ł100K(!), you have to ask yourself!!!
Also you're missing the point entirely.
We fly a 150-500 people at a time, not just the one patient!
We MUST NOT BE FATIGUED at all when at work.
Would you like to fly with me on my day 6, sector 4???
Last edited by one four sick; 5th Jul 2007 at 09:45.
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Capot,
Respectfully, you are missing the point here.
None of the responses denigrates or minimises the comparitive medical profession. I'm sure the vast majority agree that medical professionals are underpaid and endure long hours. If this was the logic and reasoning of Calder's very poorly researched article I'm also quite sure most pilots reading it would be nodding their heads in agreement.
However, Calder has slipped up and made a fool of himself among those who know what they are talking about regarding fatigue. It's onerous, as I'm quite certain it is among the medical profession.
Calder suggesting (falsely) that pilots have it so good does NOTHING to improve the lot of said medical profession. It merely continues to undermine and dis-respect pilot professionals' daily reality in the media.
For far too long we have turned the other cheek. Hence, useless hacks like Calder continue to find an outlet for their chip wrapper fodder.
As a profession, we need to do a far better job of holding folks like Calder accountable for such drivel. I can assure you of this; if a pilot or medical professional made such a simple mistake in detail our bosses would have our guts for garters (rightfully so). What professional "harm" is likely to befall Calder for such a clumsy attempt?
dd
Respectfully, you are missing the point here.
None of the responses denigrates or minimises the comparitive medical profession. I'm sure the vast majority agree that medical professionals are underpaid and endure long hours. If this was the logic and reasoning of Calder's very poorly researched article I'm also quite sure most pilots reading it would be nodding their heads in agreement.
However, Calder has slipped up and made a fool of himself among those who know what they are talking about regarding fatigue. It's onerous, as I'm quite certain it is among the medical profession.
Calder suggesting (falsely) that pilots have it so good does NOTHING to improve the lot of said medical profession. It merely continues to undermine and dis-respect pilot professionals' daily reality in the media.
For far too long we have turned the other cheek. Hence, useless hacks like Calder continue to find an outlet for their chip wrapper fodder.
As a profession, we need to do a far better job of holding folks like Calder accountable for such drivel. I can assure you of this; if a pilot or medical professional made such a simple mistake in detail our bosses would have our guts for garters (rightfully so). What professional "harm" is likely to befall Calder for such a clumsy attempt?
dd
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you could always email his editor, pointing out that the research done by one of one of his "senior" journalists was deeply flawed:
[email protected]
[email protected]
you could always email his editor, pointing out that the research done by one of one of his "senior" journalists was deeply flawed:
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Capot, nobody is doubting how hard other people work. What they are annoyed about is the lack of accuracy by this muppet of a journalist.
So lets have no more of the willy waving "I work harder than you so there" nonsense.
So lets have no more of the willy waving "I work harder than you so there" nonsense.
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The One thing that is diferent between doctoring and flying. In normal circumstances only the patient dies when a "C***up* is made.
Now piloting in normal circumstances, the pilot also dies.
Anyway why is it that in every other profession you are considered to be at work when say walking down the corridor or sitting at a desk. BUT pilots only when actually off the ground. Ah! I know pilots are not part of the human race. That's why.
Now piloting in normal circumstances, the pilot also dies.
Anyway why is it that in every other profession you are considered to be at work when say walking down the corridor or sitting at a desk. BUT pilots only when actually off the ground. Ah! I know pilots are not part of the human race. That's why.
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The one thing's always forgotten by the pilot-bashers is that while everything's fine, life's a bit easy, granted, but as soon as something happens - that's when the pilots come into their own.
The amazing 757 vs Heron recently at MAN comes into mind.
Those two guys may have been just about ready to get the newspapers out and look what they've ended up having to deal with.
So, all you uninformed know-it-alls, think about that before talking absolute drivel about this profession!
I'm off for a 4 sector now!
The amazing 757 vs Heron recently at MAN comes into mind.
Those two guys may have been just about ready to get the newspapers out and look what they've ended up having to deal with.
So, all you uninformed know-it-alls, think about that before talking absolute drivel about this profession!
I'm off for a 4 sector now!
I Have Control
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Ground-based turkeys.
Oh dear, the non-pilots are dominating the Professional Pilots' website again....and they are so evidently without relevant knowledge or experience.
I wish they would go and play elsewhere.
I wish they would go and play elsewhere.
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If the other email address for simon kelner comes back try
[email protected]
Simon Calder doesn't appear to have a logical email address at the independent; possibly he is a freelance.
Shame really, I quite liked the guy when he appeared on the TV.
[email protected]
Simon Calder doesn't appear to have a logical email address at the independent; possibly he is a freelance.
Shame really, I quite liked the guy when he appeared on the TV.
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Comparing a pilots work to a Junior Doctor's is disingenuous. Junior Doctors are paid a pittance for the outstanding work that they do, and the fact that they work such dangerously long hours should not be mocked. Perhaps instead Mr Calder could devote his time to something more worthwhile, explaining why pilots have limits to their duty time while the medical profession does not. Pilots work in a safety related profession, as indeed do doctors. Much research has been carried out on the insidious dangers of fatigue. Instead of trying to drag down the standards established over the years in aviation lets try to raise them everywhere to the standard, which is by no means a benchmark, set by aviation.
For those who do not believe that fatigue is an issue the following is lifted verbatim from the pages of the BMJ:
An 8 year old boy was admitted for elective surgery on the eardrum. He was anaesthetised and an endotracheal tube inserted, along with an internal stethoscope and temperature probe. The anaesthetist did not listen to the chest after inserting the tube. The temperature probe connector was not compatible with the monitor (the hospital had changed brands the previous day). The anaesthetist asked for another but did not connect it; he
also did not connect the stethoscope.
Surgery began at 08 20 and carbon dioxide concentrations began to rise after about 30 minutes.
The anaesthetist stopped entering CO2 and pulse on the patient's chart. Nurses observed the anaesthetist nodding in his chair, head bobbing; they did not speak to him because they “were afraid of a confrontation.”
At 10 15 the surgeon heard a gurgling sound and realised that the airway tube was disconnected. The problem was called out to the anaesthetist, who reconnected the tube. The anaesthetist did not check breathing sounds with the stethoscope.
At 10 30 the patient was breathing so rapidly the surgeon could not operate; he notified the anaesthetist that the rate was 60/min. The anaesthetist did nothing after being alerted.
At 10 45 the monitor showed irregular heartbeats.
Just before 11 00 the anaesthetist noted extreme heartbeat irregularity and asked the surgeon to stop operating. The patient was given a dose of lignocaine, but his condition worsened.
At 11 02 the patient's heart stopped beating. The anaesthetist called for code, summoning the emergency team. The endotracheal tube was removed and found to be 50% obstructed by a mucous plug. A new tube was inserted and the patient was ventilated.
The emergency team anaesthetist noticed that the airway heater had caused the breathing circuit's plastic tubing to melt and turned the heater off. The patient's temperature was 108°F. The patient died despite the efforts of the code team.
For those who do not believe that fatigue is an issue the following is lifted verbatim from the pages of the BMJ:
An 8 year old boy was admitted for elective surgery on the eardrum. He was anaesthetised and an endotracheal tube inserted, along with an internal stethoscope and temperature probe. The anaesthetist did not listen to the chest after inserting the tube. The temperature probe connector was not compatible with the monitor (the hospital had changed brands the previous day). The anaesthetist asked for another but did not connect it; he
also did not connect the stethoscope.
Surgery began at 08 20 and carbon dioxide concentrations began to rise after about 30 minutes.
The anaesthetist stopped entering CO2 and pulse on the patient's chart. Nurses observed the anaesthetist nodding in his chair, head bobbing; they did not speak to him because they “were afraid of a confrontation.”
At 10 15 the surgeon heard a gurgling sound and realised that the airway tube was disconnected. The problem was called out to the anaesthetist, who reconnected the tube. The anaesthetist did not check breathing sounds with the stethoscope.
At 10 30 the patient was breathing so rapidly the surgeon could not operate; he notified the anaesthetist that the rate was 60/min. The anaesthetist did nothing after being alerted.
At 10 45 the monitor showed irregular heartbeats.
Just before 11 00 the anaesthetist noted extreme heartbeat irregularity and asked the surgeon to stop operating. The patient was given a dose of lignocaine, but his condition worsened.
At 11 02 the patient's heart stopped beating. The anaesthetist called for code, summoning the emergency team. The endotracheal tube was removed and found to be 50% obstructed by a mucous plug. A new tube was inserted and the patient was ventilated.
The emergency team anaesthetist noticed that the airway heater had caused the breathing circuit's plastic tubing to melt and turned the heater off. The patient's temperature was 108°F. The patient died despite the efforts of the code team.
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In my experience, everyone in every profession thinks they do a great job and resents "external" comment or interference. In my experience, every profession fails, at times, to meet its own high standards. In my experience self-regulation doesn't work and, left to their own devices, professions fail to address shortcomings. With these points in mind, I welcome Mr. Calder's article. The venom and bile poured out on this board is just a dangerous symptom of an arrogant profession, which sees no need to justify itself to its customers.
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Guess what, I sent a fairly rude mail to [email protected] and this reply arrived a little while later.
Dear Mr Rubik
Thank you for your e-mail about my column on pilots’ working conditions last Saturday. I have used an excerpt from it in the Open Jaw section of The Independent Traveller to be published on Saturday, 7 July (page 19), as part of a representative selection of pilots' views. I have also referred readers to the PPRuNe website if they wish to read more responses.
Yours sincerely,
Simon Calder
So now we have to buy the Indie on Sunday?
Dear Mr Rubik
Thank you for your e-mail about my column on pilots’ working conditions last Saturday. I have used an excerpt from it in the Open Jaw section of The Independent Traveller to be published on Saturday, 7 July (page 19), as part of a representative selection of pilots' views. I have also referred readers to the PPRuNe website if they wish to read more responses.
Yours sincerely,
Simon Calder
So now we have to buy the Indie on Sunday?
Last edited by rubik101; 5th Jul 2007 at 16:27. Reason: spelling