Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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Best one for me was a incident recently when passing through security i had a plastic fork confiscated as it was deemed a offensive weapon however the leatherman multi tool with its multitude of razor sharp blades i also had with me was deemed acceptable as its classed as a tool, which as an engineer i need ...... the worlds gone bloody mad 
Join Date: May 2007
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26 pages, yes 26 pages of moaning and nothing has changed, nothing at all. Always the same farcical security regime of fear and intimidation of our pilot workforce.
Nobody here is able to change the course of our condition as operating flight crew. About 2 years ago when this stupid new regime came in force I wrote and e-mailed to the CC chairman of my company (who happened to be part of the NEC of notsobig BALPA) to voice my concern and suggest solutions to improve the security system (IE: pilots being part of the solution and not the problem). Not even an acknowledgment from that individual! It says it all really
...
It just proves that all BALPA can show towards its members is contempt; couple this with the shambles that is LHR and all the rest of a sinking system that UK plc has become makes me vote with my feet...... I'm looking for new opportunities on the continent now. Since I'm not british it won't matter !!
. Nobody here is able to change the course of our condition as operating flight crew. About 2 years ago when this stupid new regime came in force I wrote and e-mailed to the CC chairman of my company (who happened to be part of the NEC of notsobig BALPA) to voice my concern and suggest solutions to improve the security system (IE: pilots being part of the solution and not the problem). Not even an acknowledgment from that individual! It says it all really
... It just proves that all BALPA can show towards its members is contempt; couple this with the shambles that is LHR and all the rest of a sinking system that UK plc has become makes me vote with my feet...... I'm looking for new opportunities on the continent now. Since I'm not british it won't matter !!
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Who secures the security guards
Do the security guards get screened as deeply as the air crew before receiving their passes, and do they get checked each time they pass through to airside?? If so, who screens the screeners who screen them, and are they screened? And if so- - - - - - -.
The buck has to stop somewhere, and though pilots' passes should certainly be checked, the removeal of shoes and bag checking is goin too far, and as man ybefore this post have pointed out, we don't need a weapon of any kind if we really do want to cause damage.
The buck has to stop somewhere, and though pilots' passes should certainly be checked, the removeal of shoes and bag checking is goin too far, and as man ybefore this post have pointed out, we don't need a weapon of any kind if we really do want to cause damage.
anotheradam
There is at least one country ( not the UK) where the screeners are screened at the start of their shift and then not checked again, no matter how often they transit from land-side to air-side. I've seen them go through archway detectors, set of the alarm and continue unchallenged. I've "discussed" the logic of this with their supervisors, filed MORs about it when I've got back to the UK. Apparently these people are sworn and badged employees and therefore can be trusted not to bring anything illegal into the Restricted Area........
Lunatics/Asylum..etc
Lunatics/Asylum..etc
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Criminal Records Checks - Airside Employees
Newsnight's lead story tonight indicates that a double standard exists over security screening for airside employees.
Foreign nationals do not have to undergo criminal records checks because it would be too complicated and cause delays. Mr Bean's lot have taken a business decision. I'm sure BAA and the ground handling companies have done a similar cost/benefit analysis.
Jim Fitzpatrick MP could not say how many foreign nationals are employed in airside posts.
He is confident, however, that any convicted foreign terrorist now working airside at a UK airport is subject to the same level of security check as any passenger traveling through a British airport.
So that's alright then.
Foreign nationals do not have to undergo criminal records checks because it would be too complicated and cause delays. Mr Bean's lot have taken a business decision. I'm sure BAA and the ground handling companies have done a similar cost/benefit analysis.
Jim Fitzpatrick MP could not say how many foreign nationals are employed in airside posts.
He is confident, however, that any convicted foreign terrorist now working airside at a UK airport is subject to the same level of security check as any passenger traveling through a British airport.
So that's alright then.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Yeah thats about right
Its called Brown's Britian
Not bad considering he's a Scott, an Irksome one at that
ps What does Dour mean? other than useless, boring,witless,clueless,devoid of any ideas, what happens when people leave the M6 for the A74 do they leave the brains behind?
Not bad considering he's a Scott, an Irksome one at that
ps What does Dour mean? other than useless, boring,witless,clueless,devoid of any ideas, what happens when people leave the M6 for the A74 do they leave the brains behind?
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Take em orf mate...
With a thread this long I have to confess that I went to the end. I fly corporate but ocassionally pax back with mainline (thanks folks, you always spoil us when we get on board). Since we are not subject to restrictions with numbers of bags we often travel with two. I have lost count of the amount of times I have had a run in with spotty faced yoofs masquarading as security. I ask for little except a small modicum of respect and courtesy but the little b@"*&!#ds take great delight in making the whole process and tedious as possible; and only in the UK. Why do we have the monopoly on these irksome little gits. The certainly did not attend polite school.
Walk this way for a strip search please and wait here whilst I get the Vaseline and gloves.
Walk this way for a strip search please and wait here whilst I get the Vaseline and gloves.
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Another loophole:
Consider an English national who works for a foreign airline, but is based short term at the airline's base in the UK. (s)he will not have a CRC but will be a UK pilot working from the UK, using an ID provided at a foreign country.
Funny world aint it.
Consider an English national who works for a foreign airline, but is based short term at the airline's base in the UK. (s)he will not have a CRC but will be a UK pilot working from the UK, using an ID provided at a foreign country.
Funny world aint it.
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Foriegn Nationals and Screening for Airside Work
What can anyone say? Apologies if this is considered the incorrect part of the forum for such a thing to be posted upon.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...unchecked.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...unchecked.html
and if that means long delays for foreign workers so be it!
Agree, this has been known for ages, if you are a UK national you have a history which has to be checked before you get an airside id. If you enter the country, there are no checks done on you as you don`t have a history here!
Surprised it`s taken this long for cetain areas of the establishment to catch up!!
Surprised it`s taken this long for cetain areas of the establishment to catch up!!
So if Jim Fitzpatrick MP is truely happy with security arrangements for Non-UK resident/Foreign Ramp workers and Crewmembers could he tell us what the point is in subjecting UK Nationals/Residents to the extra hassle of the UK CRC process? In some UK airlines it is quite possible to be in a situation where the majority of crewmembers have not been subject to meaningfull Criminal Record Checks, which IMHO renders the whole CRC process utterly pointless - but most of us here probably knew that anyway.
As with others I have to ask why it has taken so long for some in the establishment to cotton on to this debacle?
As with others I have to ask why it has taken so long for some in the establishment to cotton on to this debacle?
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Vrille
BALPA does not have a majic wand.
There are times when they need help from the troops. I know they have been asking, nay pleading, for written reports of cases where the security regime has lead to anger and stress.
How many have they recieved? very few. So either there is not a problem or the pilots are not that bothered
If you had any idea how many man hours are spent sorting out the constant flood of security issues that keep popping up.
May I suggest that you get your collegues to give BALPA the bullets.
I also think your decision to move is a fair one for reasons that good manners prevent me from airing.
BALPA does not have a majic wand.
There are times when they need help from the troops. I know they have been asking, nay pleading, for written reports of cases where the security regime has lead to anger and stress.
How many have they recieved? very few. So either there is not a problem or the pilots are not that bothered
If you had any idea how many man hours are spent sorting out the constant flood of security issues that keep popping up.
May I suggest that you get your collegues to give BALPA the bullets.
I also think your decision to move is a fair one for reasons that good manners prevent me from airing.
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Heres a situation to make your eyes water and your sides split with laughter.
At the staff search at my base my FO had his water bottle removed. behind him in the queue was a chap with a trolley full of drinks for, I'm guessing WH smiths or O'brians. his liquids went through the same scanning machine but were ok. Not even a raised eyebrow from the security staff. There were a few other pilots in the staff search. We all looked at each other and sighed.
About a week ago I was followed through staff search by two women each carrying 2 2litre cans of white paint. For some reason they were allowed through.
If your aircrew your buggered. If your ground staff, you could probably get a swimming pool through with no hassle.
A few months ago all my crew were told to take there shoes off. the next day the same thing happened. the next day, again, we were all told the to take our shoes off. I refused.
I said that as far as I knew, the rules were about one in three should take there shoes off. the security chap said it was a percentage. "well so far your working on a 100% rule".
"heres what I think, you've had an audit, the audit has revealed that your not asking enough people to take there shoes off, so, in knee jerk response your making everyone take ther shoes off".
"I can get my manager if you want to make a complaint"
In the end since there was now a queue, and i was in a rush, I took my shoes off.
A few days later it was back to normal, and I haven't been asked to take my shoes off since.
god Bless the security ship and all who sail in her.
At the staff search at my base my FO had his water bottle removed. behind him in the queue was a chap with a trolley full of drinks for, I'm guessing WH smiths or O'brians. his liquids went through the same scanning machine but were ok. Not even a raised eyebrow from the security staff. There were a few other pilots in the staff search. We all looked at each other and sighed.
About a week ago I was followed through staff search by two women each carrying 2 2litre cans of white paint. For some reason they were allowed through.
If your aircrew your buggered. If your ground staff, you could probably get a swimming pool through with no hassle.
A few months ago all my crew were told to take there shoes off. the next day the same thing happened. the next day, again, we were all told the to take our shoes off. I refused.
I said that as far as I knew, the rules were about one in three should take there shoes off. the security chap said it was a percentage. "well so far your working on a 100% rule".
"heres what I think, you've had an audit, the audit has revealed that your not asking enough people to take there shoes off, so, in knee jerk response your making everyone take ther shoes off".
"I can get my manager if you want to make a complaint"
In the end since there was now a queue, and i was in a rush, I took my shoes off.
A few days later it was back to normal, and I haven't been asked to take my shoes off since.
god Bless the security ship and all who sail in her.
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I really don't believe the CRC is not done correctly.
When I applied for my ID, I had to do a UK CRC, and had to provide the equivilant from my home country. This was 2 years ago.
When I applied for my ID, I had to do a UK CRC, and had to provide the equivilant from my home country. This was 2 years ago.
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Originally Posted by wiggy
So if Jim Fitzpatrick MP is truely happy with security arrangements for Non-UK resident/Foreign Ramp workers and Crewmembers could he tell us what the point is in subjecting UK Nationals/Residents to the extra hassle of the UK CRC process? In some UK airlines it is quite possible to be in a situation where the majority of crewmembers have not been subject to meaningfull Criminal Record Checks, which IMHO renders the whole CRC process utterly pointless - but most of us here probably knew that anyway.
As with others I have to ask why it has taken so long for some in the establishment to cotton on to this debacle?
As with others I have to ask why it has taken so long for some in the establishment to cotton on to this debacle?
My own take on the messy problem (which actually is NOT the frustrations of aircrews and passengers and staff at airports) is that the Government need to be seen as completely even-handed with the way they apply restrictions, to the point of positively discriminating in favour of minorities (i.e. stopping non-minority groups in overtly inconvenient ways).
Self-evidently there is a high terrorism risk. It has to be managed.
The inconvenience and debacle we all see in the airport perhaps goes some way to balance the occasional instances where East London families are dragged out of bed, shot a bit, bounced down their own stairs backwards by their hair in front of their screaming mothers, locked up for a month and then released without much of an apology).
I have had to endure stop checks in my car and even a set-piece breathalyser standing in the middle of a multicultural London pavement (I had forgotten to fix my new tax disc on that last one) all in the name of even-handedness. I know it because I was told so on the spots, and asked if I minded. I didn't. I have decided that to good humouredly go along with it is for the public good until the balance can be maintained in better ways.
And the balance will not be addressed by another set of numpties. It requires rather more wisdom than that, and one would hope that there is a core of wisdom keeping the flywheels turning, or we have collectively (you me them) mucked things up real good.
It's taken me a while to see the bigger picture, but personally I think everyone in the front line on both sides should descend from high horses and comply good-humouredly.
The guy that refused to take off his shoes three days running risked his job, didn't he? Yet, he took them off eventually because resistance was futile.
I too have been annoyed at the high probability that I have had to remove my shoes, because I have a sore back and need to be careful.
I too have been perplexed at the limited checks on foreign nationals and the high probability that my checks will be 3x as rigorous as theirs, but we have sore minorities in our society and it appears we need to be more careful with some than with others.
I too do not rate Ruth Kelly - in fact I cannot stand listening to anything she says. I usually change channels when she is on tv or radio.
As I said, I am trusting in a core of real wisdom behind the scenes to keep the flywheels turning (call it the establishment if you like, and I do not mean DofT staffers because I've sat in a roomful of middling graders and I didn't like their me me me attitudes) ...
If THAT is not still the safe thing to do, then we are all lost and in twenty years we can confidently expect China to show us their way is best.
Last edited by slip and turn; 8th May 2008 at 12:28.