Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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why would i go to the trouble of fashioning a shoe size bomb to kill the lot. there are much easier ways, they are called hills. and there are plenty of them. they're also free. and they are completely legal. in fact with the exception of some pacific atolls, most countries have them.
how many buddhist suicide bombers have there been?
how many catholic suicide bombers have there been?
any hare chrishna suicide bombers?
how many muslim suicide bombers??
sure some muslims may be lovely people and the bad ones give them a bad name. but its the good ones who have to solve the muslim problem, they have to own the responsibility that their religion and no other is the religion of terror. and it is the muslims that have wrecked the wonderful industry i was in.
oh yeah, the picutre with the axe is a real bad idea, they dont like it at all. i have had security in some australian ports try to remove a set of jepps, because the metal hinges in the binder were sharp. i had to threaten to cancel the flight unless the jepps were returned. even then they were reluctant to return the company's property.
how many buddhist suicide bombers have there been?
how many catholic suicide bombers have there been?
any hare chrishna suicide bombers?
how many muslim suicide bombers??
sure some muslims may be lovely people and the bad ones give them a bad name. but its the good ones who have to solve the muslim problem, they have to own the responsibility that their religion and no other is the religion of terror. and it is the muslims that have wrecked the wonderful industry i was in.
oh yeah, the picutre with the axe is a real bad idea, they dont like it at all. i have had security in some australian ports try to remove a set of jepps, because the metal hinges in the binder were sharp. i had to threaten to cancel the flight unless the jepps were returned. even then they were reluctant to return the company's property.
Last edited by ithinkso; 6th Jul 2007 at 01:14. Reason: spelling
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one more thing,
i regularly sit next to F/Os that have failed airline pshyc tests. in fact any company pilot can occupy jump seats.
my wife and my 7 year old cannot occupy a jump seat, neither of whom have failed a pshyc test.
does anybody else see the paradox.
i regularly sit next to F/Os that have failed airline pshyc tests. in fact any company pilot can occupy jump seats.
my wife and my 7 year old cannot occupy a jump seat, neither of whom have failed a pshyc test.
does anybody else see the paradox.
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beamer:
It has absolutely nothing to do with your ATPL it is all to do with your airside pass. If you don't think our security screening is enough - then fine I'll happily agree to more in-depth vetting to get this; but that isn't the point. 
When the Capt needs to go for a 'comfort break' I am all alone in the flight deck with a reinforced door. If I wanted to kill everyone on board I could do it quite easily. I could even declare an emergency and dive towards a large city (pretending to go for the airport) and veer off at the last minute to create my own 9/11; no 150ml tube of toothpaste in sight
I am already trusted not to do this - therefore the CAA / UK Govt and anyone elsy you care to mention has alredy decreed me as a non-risk security wise - so why do I have to have my genitals fondled in public(usually by an ugly bloke
)regularly at UK airports?
As has already been said - I have no probs with it when I travel as SLF -it is just starting to grate having to do it every day (well every other day- not usually a prob inbound to UK).
And as to being seen to be the same as the pax - if I were SLF I would be moreworried that the pilots were seen to be as much of a risk as they were
. And also, they don't know if I have a bottle of shampoo in my luggage or not - the x-ray isn't usually publicly displayed; on several occasions ex-europe I have had a bottle of vino in my luggage and the security staff have spotted it, flagged the bag, seen me then smiled and given me my bag back. Its not that hard Most people who I meet are amazed that we go through the same screening as the pax - but maybe I mix with educated people
Why oh why is our trade ( I hesitate to call it a profession anymore) so full of such arrogant B******ds who think they are above the law because they happen to be pilots. If a group of doctors can be utilised as sleepers for terrorist networks..................... but 'I'm OK, I've got an ATPL' - I don't think so...........
When the Capt needs to go for a 'comfort break' I am all alone in the flight deck with a reinforced door. If I wanted to kill everyone on board I could do it quite easily. I could even declare an emergency and dive towards a large city (pretending to go for the airport) and veer off at the last minute to create my own 9/11; no 150ml tube of toothpaste in sight
I am already trusted not to do this - therefore the CAA / UK Govt and anyone elsy you care to mention has alredy decreed me as a non-risk security wise - so why do I have to have my genitals fondled in public(usually by an ugly bloke
)regularly at UK airports?As has already been said - I have no probs with it when I travel as SLF -it is just starting to grate having to do it every day (well every other day- not usually a prob inbound to UK).
And as to being seen to be the same as the pax - if I were SLF I would be moreworried that the pilots were seen to be as much of a risk as they were
. And also, they don't know if I have a bottle of shampoo in my luggage or not - the x-ray isn't usually publicly displayed; on several occasions ex-europe I have had a bottle of vino in my luggage and the security staff have spotted it, flagged the bag, seen me then smiled and given me my bag back. Its not that hard Most people who I meet are amazed that we go through the same screening as the pax - but maybe I mix with educated people
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Pilots and security checks
Come on, guys!
why would anyone of us ever bring anything "dangerous" in the cockpit to be handed over to some other maniac on our very own aeroplane to kill ourselves when the only thing we have to do to kill everybody onboard (and several other thousands, depending on where we crash) is just to disengage autopilot and trim it nose down a bit?
Come on! Be serious!
Passenger confidence in air travel? How would anyone ever sensibly think getting on an unchecked train is safer than stepping on an aeroplane where the only non-screened people onboard are the drivers?
This idiocy has gone too far.
As a military C-130 pilot I must carry weapons in the cockpit when I fly to Afghanistan...
Will anyone ever come to me and tell me I'm a danger to flight safety?
Come on!
Next time someone tries to stick anything up our a...s, to check if we have a bottle of anything stuck up there, we should just smile and ask to do them the same...before they do it to us!
why would anyone of us ever bring anything "dangerous" in the cockpit to be handed over to some other maniac on our very own aeroplane to kill ourselves when the only thing we have to do to kill everybody onboard (and several other thousands, depending on where we crash) is just to disengage autopilot and trim it nose down a bit?
Come on! Be serious!
Passenger confidence in air travel? How would anyone ever sensibly think getting on an unchecked train is safer than stepping on an aeroplane where the only non-screened people onboard are the drivers?
This idiocy has gone too far.
As a military C-130 pilot I must carry weapons in the cockpit when I fly to Afghanistan...
Will anyone ever come to me and tell me I'm a danger to flight safety?
Come on!
Next time someone tries to stick anything up our a...s, to check if we have a bottle of anything stuck up there, we should just smile and ask to do them the same...before they do it to us!
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"I am already trusted not to do this - therefore the CAA / UK Govt and anyone elsy you care to mention has alredy decreed me as a non-risk security wise - so why do I have to have my genitals fondled in public(usually by an ugly bloke )regularly at UK airports?"
On a more light note, why don't they have supermodels to fondle with our genitals? I think nobody would ever object
Sorry ladies, I just couldn't keep it inside me...
)regularly at UK airports?"On a more light note, why don't they have supermodels to fondle with our genitals? I think nobody would ever object
Sorry ladies, I just couldn't keep it inside me...
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Avman said:
"Yet!
If they can infiltrate hospitals as doctors, they can do the same as pilots with airlines. Note, it doesn't have to be an U.S. or U.K carrier. With several pilots working for one carrier it would be only a matter of time before two of them are rostered on the same flight. Doesn't have to be a pax flight, so forget the skymarshal (who with a locked cockpit door couldn't do anything anyway). They could even form their own ad hoc cargo airline and......Oh I could just go on for ever. There's no solution except to try and convince these terrorists that there are no virgins waiting for them."
Avman, please!
Don't you see the nonsense you're saying? These doctors weren't infiltrated in hospitals to kill themselves with the lot!
For Heaven's sake! If a (real) pilot wants to kill everybody on his/her own aeroplane, do you really think he/she would need anything? Do you seriously think removing toothpaste or water from my luggage will stop me the time I want to crash over some large city?
Please, get a grip!
Better, as someone else suggested, do some profiling and personal life screening, rather than searching genitals, shoes and everything else...
"Yet!
If they can infiltrate hospitals as doctors, they can do the same as pilots with airlines. Note, it doesn't have to be an U.S. or U.K carrier. With several pilots working for one carrier it would be only a matter of time before two of them are rostered on the same flight. Doesn't have to be a pax flight, so forget the skymarshal (who with a locked cockpit door couldn't do anything anyway). They could even form their own ad hoc cargo airline and......Oh I could just go on for ever. There's no solution except to try and convince these terrorists that there are no virgins waiting for them."
Avman, please!
Don't you see the nonsense you're saying? These doctors weren't infiltrated in hospitals to kill themselves with the lot!
For Heaven's sake! If a (real) pilot wants to kill everybody on his/her own aeroplane, do you really think he/she would need anything? Do you seriously think removing toothpaste or water from my luggage will stop me the time I want to crash over some large city?
Please, get a grip!
Better, as someone else suggested, do some profiling and personal life screening, rather than searching genitals, shoes and everything else...
soffici, despite your wish to treat me as some sort of retard, I think we're getting our wires crossed here somewhere. My post was directly in answer to the statement quoted above my post. It did not in any way relate to the issue of what pilots may or may not carry with them through security.
You say:
Now, re-read what I said. Are we not saying the same thing? If that doesn't convince you then ,even more pertinently, you also say:
In an earlier post (which I guess you didn't bother to read) I said:
In conclusion soffici, I believe I'm actually on your side - and I've just been hit by friendly fire 
.
You say:
If a (real) pilot wants to kill everybody on his/her own aeroplane, do you really think he/she would need anything?
Better, as someone else suggested, do some profiling and personal life screening, rather than searching genitals, shoes and everything else
Anything is possible and no existing "security" measures can effectively protect us from all eventualities. The best hope we can have is that the intelligence people can keep on top of the game - most of the time!
.
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Surely taking your shoes off can not be that difficult, can it?
If I am reading this thread correctly, there are some who believe that by virtue of the fact that they are pilots, they should be treated differently from other airport workers.
The thrust of the argument appears to be, if I wanted to do some real damage all I need to do is push the stick forward, therefore I should be exempt from the same level of inconvenience as others.
I can think of numerous airside workers who could inflict just as much damage as a pilot, so should they be exempt as well? Where should we draw the line?
You start encouraging a downgrading in security for certain individuals, then sooner or later trouble will come knocking at your door and you better hope it is not the cockpit one!!
If I am reading this thread correctly, there are some who believe that by virtue of the fact that they are pilots, they should be treated differently from other airport workers.
The thrust of the argument appears to be, if I wanted to do some real damage all I need to do is push the stick forward, therefore I should be exempt from the same level of inconvenience as others.
I can think of numerous airside workers who could inflict just as much damage as a pilot, so should they be exempt as well? Where should we draw the line?
You start encouraging a downgrading in security for certain individuals, then sooner or later trouble will come knocking at your door and you better hope it is not the cockpit one!!
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I can think of numerous airside workers who could inflict just as much damage as a pilot, so should they be exempt as well? Where should we draw the line?
Engineers can do untold damage to an aircraft - the difference between them and pilots is that they are allowed the tools to do it! We just have to trust that they won't.
Pilots don't think they are special - they just have special circumstances. Do you suffer from dandruff that only a certain shampoo will hold at bay? If you are a pax you can put it in your hold luggage - no problem. If you work on the ground it will be sat in your shower at home - no problem. If you are a pilot of a 5 day trip hopping round europe you have to decant as much as you can within limits. Like to use a certain sensitive skin shave foam - sorry it only comes in 250ml containers - guess you'll just have to get used to that rash! On a diet / don't want to eat airline food for 20 days of every month - unlucky, that sarnie has mayo on it (I have seen bananas removed from crew) - get used to that high blood pressure due to that whopping salt intake.
The main thrust of the disgruntlement comes from the fact that this inconvenience is entirely uneccessary and without much thought - it is just the remenants of a poorly thought out knee-jerk reaction to a security threat of some months ago. The fact that aircrew are the only people who are actually left with any real inconvenience (the pax only have to go without their face cream for 2 hours - not 5 days) is what gets our goat.
The stuff on sale in duty free would be worthy of as much (if not more) scrutiny (I have had empty gym drinking bottles removed because I could 'fill them up when I was airside'. At this time I could buy as much dity free as I wanted). But guess what - that hit the BAA pretty heavily financially, so that got lifted sharpish. And I bet sales of drinks/overpriced water have incresed airside too!
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If pilots must be searched, wouldn't it be a good idea to search some of the people who are currently exempt from being searched? I refer to customs, immigration service and police. They are all capable of being involved in the kidnapped family scenario.
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The stuff on sale in duty free would be worthy of as much (if not more) scrutiny
But guess what - that hit the BAA pretty heavily financially, so that got lifted sharpish
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Pilots don't think they are special - they just have special circumstances.
Do you suffer from dandruff that only a certain shampoo will hold at bay? Like to use a certain sensitive skin shave foam
Special Needs, more likely!!
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Whilst preparing the tech log for a departure, the capt asked me if he could borrow a screwdriver to tighten up his armrest that had become loose. I gave him my leatherman which I keep on my belt. He looked at me with absolute horror when I opened out the screwdriver blade and said, "My god, that's a lethal weapon!"
Whilst tightening up his armrest, he then went on to say, " So if I was a terrorist and I wanted to bring a lethal weapon on board an aeroplane, all I would have to do is become an engineer?"
To which I replied,"Yes, but that's why the terrorist decided to become a pilot, because it was easier!"
He was an ex-navy fast jet jock, who then lost his sense of humour!
But to add another point to the whinging pilots, do you think that I enjoy being treated as a criminal every time I go to work? I certainly don't enjoy taking my shoes off (even though they have kevlar toecaps and dont go beep), then being touched up by an ugly bloke. I then get back into my van, which has had a cursory check, then drive onto the ramp.
I think that this security issue is completely out of hand where it is controlled by a bunch of people with limited intelligence, but an awful lot of power. A scarey situation if you ask me.
Here's another trick you can play. We have now started getting our sandwiches confiscated. So why not make some really tasty banana and Ex-lax sandwiches! Bon appitit Mr Touchy-Feely security man with an earing, tatoos and bad breath!
Whilst tightening up his armrest, he then went on to say, " So if I was a terrorist and I wanted to bring a lethal weapon on board an aeroplane, all I would have to do is become an engineer?"
To which I replied,"Yes, but that's why the terrorist decided to become a pilot, because it was easier!"
He was an ex-navy fast jet jock, who then lost his sense of humour!
But to add another point to the whinging pilots, do you think that I enjoy being treated as a criminal every time I go to work? I certainly don't enjoy taking my shoes off (even though they have kevlar toecaps and dont go beep), then being touched up by an ugly bloke. I then get back into my van, which has had a cursory check, then drive onto the ramp.
I think that this security issue is completely out of hand where it is controlled by a bunch of people with limited intelligence, but an awful lot of power. A scarey situation if you ask me.
Here's another trick you can play. We have now started getting our sandwiches confiscated. So why not make some really tasty banana and Ex-lax sandwiches! Bon appitit Mr Touchy-Feely security man with an earing, tatoos and bad breath!
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How are professional pilots going to deal with this madness when.... people*..... like barberpol sign up and make their first post asserting things like:
Rubbish. Saudi Arabian Airlines have only been implicated in the wild conspiracy theories circulating amongst the nutters of the net. The facts are completely different. Your allegation is untrue and potentially libelous. If you'd care to read the 9/11 Commission Report here you'd discover that "Saudi Airlines", or Saudi Arabian Airlines, doesn't get a single mention anywhere.
Why do we have to tolerate people* like you around here?
* I was going to use a few other nouns and adjectives here, but that'd probably see me banned....
The 911 hijackers were associated with Saudi Airlines...
Why do we have to tolerate people* like you around here?
* I was going to use a few other nouns and adjectives here, but that'd probably see me banned....
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I wouldn't worry too much, R&EJ.
Something tells me that Barberpol is a dumbass redneck who couldn't find his or her own rear entrance with both hands, let alone find Saudi Arabia on a globe.
At least that what his or her posts would indicate.
Probably quite similar in beliefs, intelligence and motivation to the Oklahoma City bomber.
Something tells me that Barberpol is a dumbass redneck who couldn't find his or her own rear entrance with both hands, let alone find Saudi Arabia on a globe.
At least that what his or her posts would indicate.
Probably quite similar in beliefs, intelligence and motivation to the Oklahoma City bomber.
Barberpole
If you care to check you will find that no evidence that would stand in court has ever been presented as to the responsibility for the 911 hijackings. And it is apparent to many that the official conspiracy theory is totally unbelievable.
If you care to check you will find that no evidence that would stand in court has ever been presented as to the responsibility for the 911 hijackings. And it is apparent to many that the official conspiracy theory is totally unbelievable.
Avoid imitations
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Airside Passes?
Some anomalies exist. Not all pilots have an airside pass, nor are they required to hold one. Some work from small airfields where no system for issue or checking them exists.
I last time I travelled to the USA the immigration officer ("We are the face of America" - oh dear, not a good start...) became very suspicious of me. I hold a USA business visa and have entered the country many times before, all stamped up and legal.
Having asked me what I did and why I was in the USA (annual helicopter simulator training), he said he wanted to see my airside pass. I told him I didn't have it with me as I was travelling only as a passenger and wasn't going airside during my visit. He said if I was a pilot I would have an airside pass. I told him in UK it wasn't mandatory to hold one and that I did have one but hadn't brought it along because a) I didn't think I would be expected to produce it and b) If I had brought it along I could be accused of attempting to gain airside entry when not entitled because I was not actually working as crew.
His body language told me he didn't like my answers at all! All sorts of other questions were asked; eventually he called a supervisor who thankfully sorted it out after about twenty minutes of me feeling like a criminal and holding up the queue.
The other anomaly is that it is perfectly possible to gain access to airfields where passes are mandatory without being required to show a pass.
Some anomalies exist. Not all pilots have an airside pass, nor are they required to hold one. Some work from small airfields where no system for issue or checking them exists.
I last time I travelled to the USA the immigration officer ("We are the face of America" - oh dear, not a good start...) became very suspicious of me. I hold a USA business visa and have entered the country many times before, all stamped up and legal.
Having asked me what I did and why I was in the USA (annual helicopter simulator training), he said he wanted to see my airside pass. I told him I didn't have it with me as I was travelling only as a passenger and wasn't going airside during my visit. He said if I was a pilot I would have an airside pass. I told him in UK it wasn't mandatory to hold one and that I did have one but hadn't brought it along because a) I didn't think I would be expected to produce it and b) If I had brought it along I could be accused of attempting to gain airside entry when not entitled because I was not actually working as crew.
His body language told me he didn't like my answers at all! All sorts of other questions were asked; eventually he called a supervisor who thankfully sorted it out after about twenty minutes of me feeling like a criminal and holding up the queue.
The other anomaly is that it is perfectly possible to gain access to airfields where passes are mandatory without being required to show a pass.
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I at least think it sets a good example. Pilots are respected and when the pax see them going through the same security checks I think it's more likely that they will respect the checks.
Whilst there might be some merit to what you say roll_over, I am more trustful of the pilots sitting on the FD of my aircraft than I am of all the airside ground personnel who haven't visibly been "checked" in my presence. Furthermore, there is no airport security measure that can prevent a fully qualified pilot (with genuine licence and airport pass etc.) from taking his aircraft on a suicide mission.