Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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I am with cwatters on this. I fly shorthaul and get checked up to 4 times a day, very often hand-searched in front of my passengers. I don't like it, but at least I know that his way I won't be mugged by some terrorist, who want my uniform/pass etc. - it's just not worth it for them. In fact it's safer this way for us, pilots!
Cheers!
Stuck
P.S. Next time you get pissed by a security guy, try to imagine how humiliating it must be for him to have to touch you all over
Cheers!
Stuck
P.S. Next time you get pissed by a security guy, try to imagine how humiliating it must be for him to have to touch you all over
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Not aircrew so take with pinch of salt, but does it make it easier perhaps for the poor security people who spend their days doing this to cheesed-off businessmen for them to be able to say: "sorry sir, but even the pilots have to go through this routine - now please let me check your shoes, thanks"?
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What has been said here has been said many times. What I would like to see is that aircrew become part of the cure and not part of the problem, if we have we ever been a problem? Ok, there have been one or two loonies, but no security in the world will stop the pilot who wishes to commit suicide, and if that were to happen it would have to be dealt with by the rest of the crew, or the air marshall if you lucky to have one. Of the 'real' workforce of pilots, I don't know of one single incident in which anyone from any airline committed a single terrorist act.
My point is; why don't we pilots go on the same course that the security people do? (it can't be much of a course, I'm sure we'll hack it) and then we can be securitry as well as pilots and thus become part of prevention instead of being seen as a threat. After all for many, many years we have been in charge of or own, aircraft and crew's security, why did that change? BALPA, of course, do nothing. In fact I'm convinced they are part of the global warming problem, judging by the amount of CO2 they produce!!
My point is; why don't we pilots go on the same course that the security people do? (it can't be much of a course, I'm sure we'll hack it) and then we can be securitry as well as pilots and thus become part of prevention instead of being seen as a threat. After all for many, many years we have been in charge of or own, aircraft and crew's security, why did that change? BALPA, of course, do nothing. In fact I'm convinced they are part of the global warming problem, judging by the amount of CO2 they produce!!
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Balpa continue to ask for specific examples of when/where various abuses and or the idiotic application of security rules......they appear to want to find a way to point out the folly of these rules by using examples that show they aren't working.
Does anyone else think Balpa are looking for excuses rather than demanding a fair hearing?
I for one feel that as a body of professionals we are cowed by our inability to stand up with one unified voice and say NO MORE.
I would support enhanced screening, bio-metric information, and best of all personal profiling...all this must be better than the current one-size fits all security screening rubbish
Come on Balpa...grow a bloody spine for once...you are SUPPOSED to represent British Pilots and our interests...and not avoid the tough confrontational issues that we now face.
Does anyone else think Balpa are looking for excuses rather than demanding a fair hearing?
I for one feel that as a body of professionals we are cowed by our inability to stand up with one unified voice and say NO MORE.
I would support enhanced screening, bio-metric information, and best of all personal profiling...all this must be better than the current one-size fits all security screening rubbish
Come on Balpa...grow a bloody spine for once...you are SUPPOSED to represent British Pilots and our interests...and not avoid the tough confrontational issues that we now face.
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hoss72:
That doesn't always help - I know my shoes won't trip a metal detector but that doesn't stop some airports from insisting on screening them anyway. At Stansted they've got a shoe x-ray machine between conventional security and the departure lounge so the x-ray people don't even know whether you passed the metal detector OK or not.
This thread started about taking shoes off going through security, why not buy shoes that do not trigger metal detecting arches?
I don't know of one single incident in which anyone from any airline committed a single terrorist act.
If they can infiltrate hospitals as doctors, they can do the same as pilots with airlines. Note, it doesn't have to be an U.S. or U.K carrier. With several pilots working for one carrier it would be only a matter of time before two of them are rostered on the same flight. Doesn't have to be a pax flight, so forget the skymarshal (who with a locked cockpit door couldn't do anything anyway). They could even form their own ad hoc cargo airline and......Oh I could just go on for ever. There's no solution except to try and convince these terrorists that there are no virgins waiting for them.
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If they can infiltrate hospitals as doctors, they can do the same as pilots with airlines.
P R E C I S E L Y ! Anything is possible and no existing "security" measures can effectively protect us from all eventualities. The best hope we can have is that the intelligence people can keep on top of the game - most of the time!
Just musing on the question of what screening we are talking about and where it would be effective / recognised.
OK ... I pass all my details to the UK Government together with details of my airline, ATPL etc and they look at my background, Police Record, M15 / MI6 databases whatever and clear me as trusted flightcrew to have an airside pass with no restrictions and no need to pass through security with all the Pax.
Is that the way it'll work ?.... or would BAA do it for Heathrow /Gatwick Stansted / Glasgow, Manchester City Council do it for Manchester or whatever ?? Who sets the reqirements and standards .. same ones as the police or security guards yeah ?
But anyway I get cleared, is that then valid for all UK airports ? what about JFK, CDG, Frankfurt, Athens, Riyadh with recipocal rights ??
No problem, The US security checking is as rigorous as ours, if not more so, the French do a fine job, we accept anybody they ay is OK. Athens .... err didn't they have a bit of a "track record" ? Lockerbie ??? Riyadh .. oh, haven't we got some guys from Saudi who joined the NHS helping with enquiries ?
Or am I just being difficult ..... or prejudiced ???
OK ... I pass all my details to the UK Government together with details of my airline, ATPL etc and they look at my background, Police Record, M15 / MI6 databases whatever and clear me as trusted flightcrew to have an airside pass with no restrictions and no need to pass through security with all the Pax.
Is that the way it'll work ?.... or would BAA do it for Heathrow /Gatwick Stansted / Glasgow, Manchester City Council do it for Manchester or whatever ?? Who sets the reqirements and standards .. same ones as the police or security guards yeah ?
But anyway I get cleared, is that then valid for all UK airports ? what about JFK, CDG, Frankfurt, Athens, Riyadh with recipocal rights ??
No problem, The US security checking is as rigorous as ours, if not more so, the French do a fine job, we accept anybody they ay is OK. Athens .... err didn't they have a bit of a "track record" ? Lockerbie ??? Riyadh .. oh, haven't we got some guys from Saudi who joined the NHS helping with enquiries ?
Or am I just being difficult ..... or prejudiced ???
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 5th Jul 2007 at 12:27. Reason: carp spelling
The thread seems to be all about flight deck crew and no mention is made of cabin crew. The intention (maybe not intentional) is surely not to drive a wedge between one and the other ?
And if it is not, then it makes my previous post all the more pertinent.
And if it is not, then it makes my previous post all the more pertinent.
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 5th Jul 2007 at 13:33. Reason: carp spelling
Why oh why is our trade ( I hesitate to call it a profession anymore) so full of such arrogant B******ds who think they are above the law because they happen to be pilots. If a group of doctors can be utilised as sleepers for terrorist networks, are we to believe that pilots are such balanced individuals that the same cannot happen in our industry ? There are issues about consistency which perhaps need to be considered but 'I'm OK, I've got an ATPL' - I don't think so...........
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Woods For the Trees.
It seems that this countries security services can`t see the woods for the trees. Whilst airport security spend their time probing pilots and taking bottles of evian off innocent passengers in the "name" of aviation security, the terrorists are at the local esso filling their jeep full of fuel to drive in to the terminal building.
What would stop them driving a fuel tanker through the security gates at Heathrow into an aircraft? I bet the security staff wouldn`t stand in front of that bu**er!!! Haven`t they seen casino royale?!?!?!
Don`t get me wrong. Security checks are essential (even for pilots) but things have gone too far! This is just the chaos that these people want to achieve.
Security is like a chain. It`s only as strong as the weakest link. Bottles of water / shampoo / pilots shoes are not the weakest link!
What would stop them driving a fuel tanker through the security gates at Heathrow into an aircraft? I bet the security staff wouldn`t stand in front of that bu**er!!! Haven`t they seen casino royale?!?!?!
Don`t get me wrong. Security checks are essential (even for pilots) but things have gone too far! This is just the chaos that these people want to achieve.
Security is like a chain. It`s only as strong as the weakest link. Bottles of water / shampoo / pilots shoes are not the weakest link!
My opinions have merely been about who has to be security searched or not.
The present terrible inconsistent mess made of executing the policy and search procedures is another matter and there is little there I can find favour with.
The present terrible inconsistent mess made of executing the policy and search procedures is another matter and there is little there I can find favour with.
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Consider this security chasm.
On a number of occasions recently I have found myself in the flight deck with a 6ft Muslim sat behind me (who I have not met before) with his right hand next to the fire axe, who has not yet had an airside pass issued.
How can this happen?
As new cabin crew members they are encouraged to sit on the jump seat for the first few sectors. Heathrow security often takes a few weeks processing airside applications, so in the meantime they have none. After only a few short weeks training any Tom, Dick or Mohammed can be off the street and in the cockpit of an airliner. (But not my wife of course).
On a number of occasions recently I have found myself in the flight deck with a 6ft Muslim sat behind me (who I have not met before) with his right hand next to the fire axe, who has not yet had an airside pass issued.
How can this happen?
As new cabin crew members they are encouraged to sit on the jump seat for the first few sectors. Heathrow security often takes a few weeks processing airside applications, so in the meantime they have none. After only a few short weeks training any Tom, Dick or Mohammed can be off the street and in the cockpit of an airliner. (But not my wife of course).
Mach 3
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Bishop,
Good point.
I also like the crash-axe idea.
I, myself, conducted a little experiment (not that I changed my behaviour in any way) when the new "anti-liquids" rule came in.
I always take a Redbull or two with me to work (I wonder why?) stashed in my flight bag.
Guess how long it was after the new rule came in before I first got stopped and asked what was in the can?
About two months.
I still take a Redbull or two with me to work as I always have done.
Every now and again I get stopped and have to drink it there and then whilst quipping,
"You know taking this off me is endangering my passengers safety because I'm often so tired at the end of a duty this is the only thing keeping me up!"
Mostly I slip through unchallenged with my dangerous liquid.
It does bring a wry smile to my face every time it happens as it does call into question the competence of those who often take a perverse sense of pleasure in contesting my professional credentials day in day out.
Good point.
I also like the crash-axe idea.
I, myself, conducted a little experiment (not that I changed my behaviour in any way) when the new "anti-liquids" rule came in.
I always take a Redbull or two with me to work (I wonder why?) stashed in my flight bag.
Guess how long it was after the new rule came in before I first got stopped and asked what was in the can?
About two months.
I still take a Redbull or two with me to work as I always have done.
Every now and again I get stopped and have to drink it there and then whilst quipping,
"You know taking this off me is endangering my passengers safety because I'm often so tired at the end of a duty this is the only thing keeping me up!"
Mostly I slip through unchallenged with my dangerous liquid.
It does bring a wry smile to my face every time it happens as it does call into question the competence of those who often take a perverse sense of pleasure in contesting my professional credentials day in day out.
PPRuNe supporter
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Fake pilots never manage to get onto planes do they...and before anyone points out that it's very rare...perhaps terrorists don't try to get fake pilots onboard because they know they are subject to the same level of secirity as pax by cwatters
I operate out of a major US airport and do not get screened, I swipe my pass through a reader, then punch in my code, the turnstile lets me go through while security watches, after passing through, they make sure the picture on the pass is me, quick and easy.