kenya airlines 737-800 missing
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. Management gave in to KALPA when they threatened an all-out strike to prevent expats joining.
2. KALPA even managed to get IFALPA to issue a Notice advising pilots not to join KQ . This was without any 'normal' basis , ie KQ had not sacked anybody etc.
3. Cannot believe any Captain would take an order over the phone to take-off ever , especially in such dire conditions. This is one rumour too far.
4. I fly the 800 , it is a fine aircraft , but like any aircraft it does not like flying in Thunderstorm cells.
2. KALPA even managed to get IFALPA to issue a Notice advising pilots not to join KQ . This was without any 'normal' basis , ie KQ had not sacked anybody etc.
3. Cannot believe any Captain would take an order over the phone to take-off ever , especially in such dire conditions. This is one rumour too far.
4. I fly the 800 , it is a fine aircraft , but like any aircraft it does not like flying in Thunderstorm cells.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flyawaybird:
Considering the very large number of 737NG (-600/700/800/900) aircraft delivered to date, the number of accidents is not out of line. And I believe a little research will show that pilot lack of discipline and inexperience are frequent accident contributors.
The data are readily available online.
Considering the very large number of 737NG (-600/700/800/900) aircraft delivered to date, the number of accidents is not out of line. And I believe a little research will show that pilot lack of discipline and inexperience are frequent accident contributors.
The data are readily available online.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: London
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the captain's alleged consultation with Nairobi before taking off, I know no more than what the rumour says, but it could explain one puzzle that I never saw any comment on. Permission to take off is not requested on the CVR transcript.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: FL350
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Commenting on Arkroyal: "Remembers Capt. was ex=military. You could be right. What I know is, he was employed by KQ as a flight steward initially, then after a couple of years KQ was recruiting some pilots and he applied and was accepted. What I don't know is whether KQ sponsored his training or not, since he was already working with them or where he was sent for training. That I don't know.
1. Management gave in to KALPA when they threatened an all-out strike to prevent expats joining.
2. KALPA even managed to get IFALPA to issue a Notice advising pilots not to join KQ . This was without any 'normal' basis , ie KQ had not sacked anybody etc.
3. Cannot believe any Captain would take an order over the phone to take-off ever , especially in such dire conditions. This is one rumour too far.
4. I fly the 800 , it is a fine aircraft , but like any aircraft it does not like flying in Thunderstorm cells.
2. KALPA even managed to get IFALPA to issue a Notice advising pilots not to join KQ . This was without any 'normal' basis , ie KQ had not sacked anybody etc.
3. Cannot believe any Captain would take an order over the phone to take-off ever , especially in such dire conditions. This is one rumour too far.
4. I fly the 800 , it is a fine aircraft , but like any aircraft it does not like flying in Thunderstorm cells.
2.I dont know whether this is true either! From my sources, its not true
3.Nope, according to some people I had talked to, it was more of a case of "get- thereitis"
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
777 Heavy , I stand by my statement , check your own facts please. As you say ' I do not know if this is true ' is no argument . I actually saw the Ifalpa Recruitment Ban notice for KQ .
As for Point 1 , I stand by that too . And please don't play the race card with me . I fail to see how I said anybody was inferior . The fact was that KQ needed experienced crew to help get the training/upgrade demand moving . If there were sufficient experienced Kenyans available to do this in the first place , then there would have NEVER been any talk of recruitment would there ?
Of course there are KALPA members with moderate views , all unions have them , but they are unlikely to be the leaders. Besides , I learnt a lot about the stance from a 767 Captain in the Aero Club at Wilson . He was charming and polite , but made it very clear where they stood. Fair enough I thought , won't waste my time pursuing that paper trail !
If you can prove me wrong on any of my points , please go ahead , but please check your 'facts' first .
As for Point 1 , I stand by that too . And please don't play the race card with me . I fail to see how I said anybody was inferior . The fact was that KQ needed experienced crew to help get the training/upgrade demand moving . If there were sufficient experienced Kenyans available to do this in the first place , then there would have NEVER been any talk of recruitment would there ?
Of course there are KALPA members with moderate views , all unions have them , but they are unlikely to be the leaders. Besides , I learnt a lot about the stance from a 767 Captain in the Aero Club at Wilson . He was charming and polite , but made it very clear where they stood. Fair enough I thought , won't waste my time pursuing that paper trail !
If you can prove me wrong on any of my points , please go ahead , but please check your 'facts' first .
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kenya Airways 737-800 missing
777 Heavy,
First of all, some of my comments were based on rumours by the Kenya newspapers and KQ staff speculation. We get informed by what we read from the media, respective company staff or from threads here. Rumours cannot be facts, although it is often said, that there is always a grain of truth in rumours. We deal with a lot of it here at PPRuNe. I must say I really like reading what pilots write here, because some things you don't get to hear elsewhere.
This is not personal, but was merely replying to Skylion's comment about the training and experience of KQ pilots. If you go back to my comment you will see that I seem to know that there are very well trained and experienced KQ pilots ex-EAA. an airliner i worked for, sometimes back. Any pilot of whatever race with good training and good experience can master flying very well. There is a saying that goes "Experience is the best teacher". This is very true but good training is also required. I believe this is very sensitive where pilots are concerned considering where they are operating from and involving many passengers entrusted in their capable hands and sober minds.
I don't remember talking of KQ sacking anyone.
About of the captain of the ill-fated A/C being called back by KQ CEO, this was speculation from the KQ staff, otherwise it won't be easy to know such internal details.
First of all, some of my comments were based on rumours by the Kenya newspapers and KQ staff speculation. We get informed by what we read from the media, respective company staff or from threads here. Rumours cannot be facts, although it is often said, that there is always a grain of truth in rumours. We deal with a lot of it here at PPRuNe. I must say I really like reading what pilots write here, because some things you don't get to hear elsewhere.
This is not personal, but was merely replying to Skylion's comment about the training and experience of KQ pilots. If you go back to my comment you will see that I seem to know that there are very well trained and experienced KQ pilots ex-EAA. an airliner i worked for, sometimes back. Any pilot of whatever race with good training and good experience can master flying very well. There is a saying that goes "Experience is the best teacher". This is very true but good training is also required. I believe this is very sensitive where pilots are concerned considering where they are operating from and involving many passengers entrusted in their capable hands and sober minds.
I don't remember talking of KQ sacking anyone.
About of the captain of the ill-fated A/C being called back by KQ CEO, this was speculation from the KQ staff, otherwise it won't be easy to know such internal details.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lon UK
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly would seem to be another chain leading up to the event.
Substandard Captain, according to his airline records, making a bad decision to depart. Extremely bad weather. Poor CRM with a very junior and inexperienced FO intimidated shortly before TO by the Captain. Mistakes in operational procedures. lack of piloting skills to correct the situation that then developed as a result. Neither possibly should have been in the seats they occupied
In fairness to the Capt under the prevailing circumstances he may well have been tense and worried. Who would not be with the prevailing weather conditions where apparently even the ATC were debating whether to allow him to depart. He already knowing that past performance had meant him being under airline scrutiny probably reluctant to disrupt the schedule.
Insufficient emphasis placed on basic handling skills in todays airline training environment. Although not a factor here the present situation where training organizations place new FO's with companies to 'gain time on type' leaving the Companies Captains to act as trainers is also a situation that seems unhealthy, automatics in after lift-off until time to land with little or no handling to avoid any chance of infringements. Would also seem to be loading the odds against the Captain should things go wrong with low time inexperienced FO's.
Under the circumstances here it is unlikely that the Capt based upon his purported history possessed much in the way of basic handling skills. The FO was unlikely to have had the time to learn much basic handling let alone in the type he was in. In the report though it does seem that he 'may' have had a better idea of what was going on and did attempt to give the Captain some feedback, as well as probably fighting for his life and attempting to do something rather than just sit there and go in.
Based on the reported situation the FO may well have been already flustered by his Captains attitude and previous behavior, and worried about extreme weather, leading to his not checking/initiating autopilot actuation.
Inability of either crew-member to see early enough that an unusual attitude was developing, or to correct the situation when it did, with both apparently applying opposing inputs when they did attempt to retrieve the situation. This has happened to more experienced crews in better conditions, Air India 747 rolling inverted at night, and some similar elements to the loss of control on the Gulf Air Airbus accident on the night overshoot at Baharain with a possibly substandard Capt and inexperienced FO.
Politics does sometimes play a role and may have here. The captain despite poor performance continued operating in command, the FO possibly without the experience/time to be where he was, the airline reluctant to fill gaps with expats. First route training Capt of mine in EAA was a Tanzanian and the best Dak training Capt I had the privilege of flying with. As someone has pointed out there are simply good pilots and bad pilots with everything in between.
This one sounds as though it may have been the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.
Substandard Captain, according to his airline records, making a bad decision to depart. Extremely bad weather. Poor CRM with a very junior and inexperienced FO intimidated shortly before TO by the Captain. Mistakes in operational procedures. lack of piloting skills to correct the situation that then developed as a result. Neither possibly should have been in the seats they occupied
In fairness to the Capt under the prevailing circumstances he may well have been tense and worried. Who would not be with the prevailing weather conditions where apparently even the ATC were debating whether to allow him to depart. He already knowing that past performance had meant him being under airline scrutiny probably reluctant to disrupt the schedule.
Insufficient emphasis placed on basic handling skills in todays airline training environment. Although not a factor here the present situation where training organizations place new FO's with companies to 'gain time on type' leaving the Companies Captains to act as trainers is also a situation that seems unhealthy, automatics in after lift-off until time to land with little or no handling to avoid any chance of infringements. Would also seem to be loading the odds against the Captain should things go wrong with low time inexperienced FO's.
Under the circumstances here it is unlikely that the Capt based upon his purported history possessed much in the way of basic handling skills. The FO was unlikely to have had the time to learn much basic handling let alone in the type he was in. In the report though it does seem that he 'may' have had a better idea of what was going on and did attempt to give the Captain some feedback, as well as probably fighting for his life and attempting to do something rather than just sit there and go in.
Based on the reported situation the FO may well have been already flustered by his Captains attitude and previous behavior, and worried about extreme weather, leading to his not checking/initiating autopilot actuation.
Inability of either crew-member to see early enough that an unusual attitude was developing, or to correct the situation when it did, with both apparently applying opposing inputs when they did attempt to retrieve the situation. This has happened to more experienced crews in better conditions, Air India 747 rolling inverted at night, and some similar elements to the loss of control on the Gulf Air Airbus accident on the night overshoot at Baharain with a possibly substandard Capt and inexperienced FO.
Politics does sometimes play a role and may have here. The captain despite poor performance continued operating in command, the FO possibly without the experience/time to be where he was, the airline reluctant to fill gaps with expats. First route training Capt of mine in EAA was a Tanzanian and the best Dak training Capt I had the privilege of flying with. As someone has pointed out there are simply good pilots and bad pilots with everything in between.
This one sounds as though it may have been the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time for the wrong reasons.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brat said, Sadly would be seem another chain.........
Your comment is well put and I would only wonder why KQ management, knowing the capt's performance and considering the very young FO at 23, capped with the frequent West Africa bad weather, did not put a better pilot in command or an experienced FO. This is very sad of the victims' relatives. 
to KQ.
to KQ.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: always airborne
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"did not put a better pilot in command"
Eh? Did anyone know in advance about that?
Or are there any lists with levels of "goodness" somewhere?
What i dont understand is the experience of the FO. Was he still under supervision, or not? And how is the supervision organizied with safety pilot? For those hours (i remember 50...?) in the airline i am working for, a FO would be under supervision with a special training captain AND a second officer as a safety pilot.
Eh? Did anyone know in advance about that?
Or are there any lists with levels of "goodness" somewhere?
What i dont understand is the experience of the FO. Was he still under supervision, or not? And how is the supervision organizied with safety pilot? For those hours (i remember 50...?) in the airline i am working for, a FO would be under supervision with a special training captain AND a second officer as a safety pilot.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kenya airways 737-800 missing
Mshamba "did not put a better pilot"
No one knows in advance of any happening. But don't think KQ flight operations should be concerned who is flying where. The roster is often made way far in advance. It is up to the management to make sure pilots are trained well, experience and if need be, be given refresher courses. There is no execuse for ignorance or overlooking certain vital standards which should be enhanced.
No one knows in advance of any happening. But don't think KQ flight operations should be concerned who is flying where. The roster is often made way far in advance. It is up to the management to make sure pilots are trained well, experience and if need be, be given refresher courses. There is no execuse for ignorance or overlooking certain vital standards which should be enhanced.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: always airborne
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What you probably mean is the legitimation for several airports, which are difficult to fly in, like Funchal/Madeira for example. But Douala certainly isn't, so special experience is required "only" due to the harsh weather out there on the west coast. And that, i assume, all pilots (captains) at KQ should have! Maybe i'm a bit too credulous?
Maybe you think about KQ differs between captains for "westbound routings" and "the rest", but i doubt they do, and i also doubt it would be necessary, as red/magenta on the WX tells everybody the same: don't fly into, end of it. So simple.
Maybe you think about KQ differs between captains for "westbound routings" and "the rest", but i doubt they do, and i also doubt it would be necessary, as red/magenta on the WX tells everybody the same: don't fly into, end of it. So simple.
