The "Crew Security" Thread (merged)
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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And this one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykzqF...elated&search= applies to both sides of the Atlantic.
If I may relate a personal experience from a few weeks ago as I was passing through the bowels of Manchester Airport where flight crew have to go to be screened separately from the 'Mall Shoppers' upstairs. I was with my crew, all 18 of us plus our escort who had an ID that actually worked the various doors we had to traverse through to get back up the the departure gate.
Those crew who had various personal items in their little baggies were dutifully showing them to the screeners when I noticed on the far side of the checkpoint, a worker came into the area with one of those tall wire trolleys used to transport goods from the delivery vans to the retailers stock rooms. In the trolley were several bundles of 1 litre bottles of drinking water. Each bundle had about a dozen bottles shrink wrapped in clear plastic together.
The worker then had to put each bundle of shrink-wrapped water through the X-ray machine!!!!
The bottles were clear as was the wrapping. There was only clear liquid, most probaby water, in the bundles.
What was so obvious to us was that the 'security' monkeys, (I use the word 'security' advisedly and apologise to monkeys for insulting their intelligence and discretionary thinking) could just have looked at the bundles and seen that there were no sharp or solid objects hidden within the bottles but they had to go through the motions of x-raying them anyway. What was also glaringly obvious was that no attempt was made to check that the contents of the bottles was indeed water as that would have meant that they were rendered unsaleable.
So, as we crew were having our aftershave and lip-gel inspected to make sure we didn't have more than the prescribed 100ml, a worker was bringing through at leat 120 litres of clear liquid to be left airside, unchecked except for sharp pointy things inside!
Now they want to introduce random sampling of the liquids! It really is the asylum being taken over by the patients. It smacks of Ministry Muppets thinking up new ways to justify their existence. It has absolutely nothing to do with security.
Why, after the underground bombings, is there still no system of security measures in place other than public vigilance? I don't see bombs and terrorist acts being repeated on the trains every other day. The same applies to airport security. The way it is implemented is nothing but a sham and designed to fool the gullible public that something is actually being done.
Bring in proper profiling and use intelligence to filter out those people most likely to carry out acts of violence on an aircraft... those whose intent is to carry out an act of terrorism and not the 99.99999% of the rest of us who are not a threat. Someone with the intent on causing mayhem and disaster is not going to get past a properly trained profiler when they know that they are likely to meet their maker or vestal virgins once they get successfully airborne.
If I may relate a personal experience from a few weeks ago as I was passing through the bowels of Manchester Airport where flight crew have to go to be screened separately from the 'Mall Shoppers' upstairs. I was with my crew, all 18 of us plus our escort who had an ID that actually worked the various doors we had to traverse through to get back up the the departure gate.
Those crew who had various personal items in their little baggies were dutifully showing them to the screeners when I noticed on the far side of the checkpoint, a worker came into the area with one of those tall wire trolleys used to transport goods from the delivery vans to the retailers stock rooms. In the trolley were several bundles of 1 litre bottles of drinking water. Each bundle had about a dozen bottles shrink wrapped in clear plastic together.
The worker then had to put each bundle of shrink-wrapped water through the X-ray machine!!!!
The bottles were clear as was the wrapping. There was only clear liquid, most probaby water, in the bundles.What was so obvious to us was that the 'security' monkeys, (I use the word 'security' advisedly and apologise to monkeys for insulting their intelligence and discretionary thinking) could just have looked at the bundles and seen that there were no sharp or solid objects hidden within the bottles but they had to go through the motions of x-raying them anyway. What was also glaringly obvious was that no attempt was made to check that the contents of the bottles was indeed water as that would have meant that they were rendered unsaleable.
So, as we crew were having our aftershave and lip-gel inspected to make sure we didn't have more than the prescribed 100ml, a worker was bringing through at leat 120 litres of clear liquid to be left airside, unchecked except for sharp pointy things inside!
Now they want to introduce random sampling of the liquids! It really is the asylum being taken over by the patients. It smacks of Ministry Muppets thinking up new ways to justify their existence. It has absolutely nothing to do with security.
Why, after the underground bombings, is there still no system of security measures in place other than public vigilance? I don't see bombs and terrorist acts being repeated on the trains every other day. The same applies to airport security. The way it is implemented is nothing but a sham and designed to fool the gullible public that something is actually being done.
Bring in proper profiling and use intelligence to filter out those people most likely to carry out acts of violence on an aircraft... those whose intent is to carry out an act of terrorism and not the 99.99999% of the rest of us who are not a threat. Someone with the intent on causing mayhem and disaster is not going to get past a properly trained profiler when they know that they are likely to meet their maker or vestal virgins once they get successfully airborne.
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At our security check area this morning there were five 'guards' on duty.
No.1 stood outside the entrance smoking, hopefully just a cigarette.
No.2 sat at the desk and inspected my 'Landside Only' ID card.
No.3 sat watching my bag and jacket as it passed through the X-ray machine.
No.4 and 5 were eating a heated meal. Next to them both sat a 330ml bottle of orange juice and a 330ml bottle of fruit crush drink, both with plastic obscuring wrapping.
Did I say anything?
Not on your life!
Are these muppets really given a more thourough screening than us?
Do these muppets pass through security on the way to work? If not, why not.
How come they can sit airside with their meals and drinks and I am only allowed an empty water bottle?
Thank God I fly short-haul.
Write to your MP. Make a noise for goodness sake!
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
No.1 stood outside the entrance smoking, hopefully just a cigarette.
No.2 sat at the desk and inspected my 'Landside Only' ID card.
No.3 sat watching my bag and jacket as it passed through the X-ray machine.
No.4 and 5 were eating a heated meal. Next to them both sat a 330ml bottle of orange juice and a 330ml bottle of fruit crush drink, both with plastic obscuring wrapping.
Did I say anything?
Not on your life!
Are these muppets really given a more thourough screening than us?
Do these muppets pass through security on the way to work? If not, why not.
How come they can sit airside with their meals and drinks and I am only allowed an empty water bottle?
Thank God I fly short-haul.
Write to your MP. Make a noise for goodness sake!
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
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Well still no word from the 10 Downing street website to say nay or yay to the petition. Im wondering if they are worried by the amount of people who might sign it?
Once its approved and up and running i'll post the link....if thats allowed?
Once its approved and up and running i'll post the link....if thats allowed?
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At the bottom of the page from the link above
"A senior Lufthansa pilot pointed out the idiocy to me - he is not allowed to carry e.g. nail clippers, a problem on long-haul flights where he may be away from home for up to a week at a time.
Yet right behind his pilot's seat is a three-foot-six fire axe. Joined-up thinking?"
Rob
"A senior Lufthansa pilot pointed out the idiocy to me - he is not allowed to carry e.g. nail clippers, a problem on long-haul flights where he may be away from home for up to a week at a time.
Yet right behind his pilot's seat is a three-foot-six fire axe. Joined-up thinking?"
Rob
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The notice on entry to the security zone says something on the lines that security staff have the right to work without being verbally or physically abused - so what gives them the right to do it to us.
UK security sucks - for gods sake even the Tsa are professional and polite and that costs nothing wake up Transec before you put us all out of a job.
UK security sucks - for gods sake even the Tsa are professional and polite and that costs nothing wake up Transec before you put us all out of a job.
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A great thread, normally there are many opposing views but this one is virtually unanimous in opinion. I regularly fly from LHR as a passenger & it's become a total nightmare. Lines of people stretching through the entire terminal & up to the carpark at T3 waiting to clear 'security' being harrassed & shouted at by these morons is just beyond belief. Then notices that, "passengers only," may enter T4 so if you're going away from home for a long time no sweet goodbyes from your loved ones anymore! The BAA may be looking forward to the grand opening of T5 but if this crap keeps on for just a little while longer LHR will be a ghost airport: people are already starting to avoid the place like the plague. I know: I work with many nationalities who are now flatly refusing to use LHR because of the moronic security staff & there Draconian measures.
When I travel into Europe I will always opt for the ferry. Guess what? No brainless security, no a$$hole making a worker's or a traveller's day a misery. But guess what else? No terrorist action carried out on the ship. How come? You could drive a car or van packed with explosives of any description & obliterate the ship, but they don't, God forbid they ever do, but it's certainly not the lack of security that is putting these bastards off.
As a previous poster has said, I have walked through security with all of my liquids in my hand luggage by mistake: shampoo, shower gel, after shave, toothpaste etc., & the scanner never picked it up. Are we therefore relying on the budding terrorist to be honest & admit that he has his nitro in his hand luggage & then dutyfully put it into a clear palstic bag?
We have a real flight safety issue developing here & it's about time that this nanny state inducing, overly p.c. Government in the UK started to really tackle the problem not produce putrid sound bites that do no good for anyone. If they don't then they'll be tolling the bell as the UK civil avaition industry goes down the pan.
When I travel into Europe I will always opt for the ferry. Guess what? No brainless security, no a$$hole making a worker's or a traveller's day a misery. But guess what else? No terrorist action carried out on the ship. How come? You could drive a car or van packed with explosives of any description & obliterate the ship, but they don't, God forbid they ever do, but it's certainly not the lack of security that is putting these bastards off.
As a previous poster has said, I have walked through security with all of my liquids in my hand luggage by mistake: shampoo, shower gel, after shave, toothpaste etc., & the scanner never picked it up. Are we therefore relying on the budding terrorist to be honest & admit that he has his nitro in his hand luggage & then dutyfully put it into a clear palstic bag?
We have a real flight safety issue developing here & it's about time that this nanny state inducing, overly p.c. Government in the UK started to really tackle the problem not produce putrid sound bites that do no good for anyone. If they don't then they'll be tolling the bell as the UK civil avaition industry goes down the pan.
Rotate on this!
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X-Centric
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above.
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above.
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Once again I must complain about the idiotic security at Manchester. Last Friday myself, Husband and 18month old flew to LHR. My Son's change bag was scanned. "There are liquid items in it" I was told. There obviously wasn't. So it went through again. "Yes there are, they are long, thin and at this end of the bag." Ahh, wet wipes! So I asked could this be what was being shown on the screen? No I was told and promptly had most of the contents removed from the bag. Except for the wipes. Once again the bag is xrayed and look, there is still something wet and long in there.
Once again I am ranted at about liquids, once again I explain that it will be the wet wipes. So I take them out and the bag is screened. Again.
TA DA! The mysterious long, thin, wet thing is gone!
Yesterday, whilst on duty, after being scanned and patted down I was asked if I minded my handbag being randomly searched? As this has happened just about everytime I have passed through for the last two weeks, I replied "yes, actually, I did." I also asked how this was catching any "terrorists". The answer? We don't make the rules.
I absolutely fail to see how any of this is helping. The DfT are fools and are making more and more people, who love their jobs, deeply unhappy and stressed for no good reason.
T then asked about testing of liquids. Apparantely they are to test every 10oth liquid for now and in the future it will be every 50th!! Yes they do actully stick litmus paper into tubes of toothpaste.
Once again I am ranted at about liquids, once again I explain that it will be the wet wipes. So I take them out and the bag is screened. Again.
TA DA! The mysterious long, thin, wet thing is gone!
Yesterday, whilst on duty, after being scanned and patted down I was asked if I minded my handbag being randomly searched? As this has happened just about everytime I have passed through for the last two weeks, I replied "yes, actually, I did." I also asked how this was catching any "terrorists". The answer? We don't make the rules.
I absolutely fail to see how any of this is helping. The DfT are fools and are making more and more people, who love their jobs, deeply unhappy and stressed for no good reason.
T then asked about testing of liquids. Apparantely they are to test every 10oth liquid for now and in the future it will be every 50th!! Yes they do actully stick litmus paper into tubes of toothpaste.
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Quote:
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree.
Security is surly and off-putting for the paying punters (who, as we need no reminding, we rely on for our wages), as well as us. Pax can see as well as we can that the rules are arbitrary and unnecessarily brusquely enforced.
I hate the thought of my punters being upset for no good reason before flying.
CC
Sorry but for Pax the measures are a fact of life and may serve some purpose. For aircrew however a solution needs to be found as suggested in the link above.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree.
Security is surly and off-putting for the paying punters (who, as we need no reminding, we rely on for our wages), as well as us. Pax can see as well as we can that the rules are arbitrary and unnecessarily brusquely enforced.
I hate the thought of my punters being upset for no good reason before flying.
CC
"I hate the thought of my punters being upset for no good reason before flying"
Chuffer - it is very kind of you to have such consideration. But, as ex-aircrew-now-frequent flier, I am far more concerned that YOU and your colleagues should not be upset for any good reason before flight.
The arrogance of these bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers and toothpaste checkers is frankly absurd. Time that the whole $odding lot of them were booted back to the dole queues whence they crawled.....
As for the anally-retentve DfT - just what planet are they from?
Regarding standards of security:
UK - sometimes shoes and belt. Always long queues.
FRA - sometimes shoes, sometimes belt, sometimes watch. Presumably these peoples' ancestors collected gold teeth?
Other German airports are far more friendly and sensible than the cretins at FRA; I now try to avoid the place unless there's no feasible option.
Chuffer - it is very kind of you to have such consideration. But, as ex-aircrew-now-frequent flier, I am far more concerned that YOU and your colleagues should not be upset for any good reason before flight.
The arrogance of these bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers and toothpaste checkers is frankly absurd. Time that the whole $odding lot of them were booted back to the dole queues whence they crawled.....
As for the anally-retentve DfT - just what planet are they from?
Regarding standards of security:
UK - sometimes shoes and belt. Always long queues.
FRA - sometimes shoes, sometimes belt, sometimes watch. Presumably these peoples' ancestors collected gold teeth?
Other German airports are far more friendly and sensible than the cretins at FRA; I now try to avoid the place unless there's no feasible option.
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The terminally clueless sub-species of SLF doesn't help matters either. I picked the wrong security queue yesterday because someone about three in front of me hadn't done the business with the liquids and the plastic bag and so held up the queue while the offending items were sorted. Then the one in front of me, who'd just stood there for a few minutes and watched all this taking place, did exactly the same thing. I like to think that had that been me, I would have successfully put two and two together and achieved four, and been sorting my carry-on before reaching the front of the queue.
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The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.
The one thing I can guarantee is that, without exception, you'd all be squealing like stuck pigs and running to your ambulance chasing lawyers if the rules were relaxed and your flight was caught up in any type of incident.
, is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.The one thing I can guarantee is that, without exception, you'd all be squealing like stuck pigs and running to your ambulance chasing lawyers if the rules were relaxed and your flight was caught up in any type of incident.
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The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.
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Niknak - do you work for the DfT because just like them, you just don't get it, do you? My day would indeed be ruined due to an act of terrorism on my aircraft but it ain't going to be or my crew 'terrorising' and it isn't going to be due to my having taken a 150 ml can of aftershave on board, either.
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it's not only you pilots who get the pounding...controllers on one of our aiports are not allowed any more to come to twr via rotating doors any more (please note that to enter those doors one needs valid magnetic card and to enter next doors card is needed as well, and there IS a video camera installed on both doors). No, now they must pass the security gate, where they are put to daily SS treatment, regardless that a) all the security know all the controllers b) for an atco to make an act of terrorism...well its the same as with pilots (you either trust them or you shoot them on site).
I think this treatment of us, professionals is showing, that there is no trust whatsoever towards us, and that semi-literate SS individual on security passage has power to humiliate you and us every day.
I think this treatment of us, professionals is showing, that there is no trust whatsoever towards us, and that semi-literate SS individual on security passage has power to humiliate you and us every day.
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Originally Posted by niknak
The most striking thing about the vast majority of posts here, all posted by the oh so knowlegable "experts" , is that none of you have produced a solution to the problem of preventing terrorism incidents.
Security is not absolute, the only way to prevent an incident is not to fly. otherwise there is always a risk. Most people think that the security restrictions on the pax are Over the top. (especially given that we regularly pick up pax overseas with little or no screening, who can bring what they want onto the a/c).
Everyone accepts that to apply the same screening to the aircrew is just moronic. I don't need liquids, I don't need a toothpick, I'm already in control of the aircraft.
To commit a terrorist act you need means and motivation. Lets concentrate on screening people for the motivation.
Also I agree with the previous poster that I would prefer my pax not to be annoyed when they get on the plane. Air rage incidences are on the increase, I wonder why?
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AlexL,
There may not have been a court case but there has been a case where a terrorist blew a large hole on a 747:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp...nes_Flight_434
Why do we need a court case to proof this?
The facts are simple, where there is a will there is a way, as long as there are conflicts between nations, ethnic groups and religion groups we will see acts of violence against each other there is no way of stoping this, we should concentrate on creating a more peaceful planet (i know this is wishful thinking) i accept there is always going to be a conflict between people but by reducing the conflicts the less violence we shall see therefore less need of security measures which are often handicapped and cause more problems with it.
The world's problems are escalating and all we seem to be doing is patch fix them but in the meantime more conflicts happen and the people in turn get more frustrated and scared there is only so much we can take, the path we seem to be on now is the path to WWIII.
There may not have been a court case but there has been a case where a terrorist blew a large hole on a 747:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp...nes_Flight_434
Why do we need a court case to proof this?
The facts are simple, where there is a will there is a way, as long as there are conflicts between nations, ethnic groups and religion groups we will see acts of violence against each other there is no way of stoping this, we should concentrate on creating a more peaceful planet (i know this is wishful thinking) i accept there is always going to be a conflict between people but by reducing the conflicts the less violence we shall see therefore less need of security measures which are often handicapped and cause more problems with it.
The world's problems are escalating and all we seem to be doing is patch fix them but in the meantime more conflicts happen and the people in turn get more frustrated and scared there is only so much we can take, the path we seem to be on now is the path to WWIII.
